Spiritual, Not Religious

Mollie: 00:03

Hey, y'all. Welcome to spiritual not religious. This is a podcast for young adults that explores the intricacies of God's kingdom and the modern world.

Shawn: 00:22

Hey, friends. And let me begin by saying on behalf of all of us here at Spiritual Not Religious, happy New Year. We hope the last few weeks have been full of being with family and friends, maybe getting in some much needed rest, and eating a bit too much food, or drinking entirely too much eggnog, you know, if that's your thing. If none of that happened, well, there's always next year. Regardless, you are clearly making some great New Year's decisions already just by joining us for another episode of spiritual, not religious.

Shawn: 00:56

I'm your host, Sean Winburn, and I'm once again joined by my incredibly gifted cohost, James Henry and Molly June Miller Bachman. I am so grateful for these two wonderful friends and for the blessing they are to me. And the three of us are all very grateful to all of our listeners who have jumped aboard the train of thought that takes us into all kinds of conversations relating to God, belief, the church, and how it all connects to us in a relevant way. Regardless of who you are or where you are in life, you are bound to have some questions that might be based in being spiritual, not religious. And we're glad you're here with us.

Shawn: 01:32

Now just a slight warning for our listeners out there. These conversations could end up just about anywhere, and no one really knows what James is going to say. So be ready to hear just about anything. Now we really wanna hear your thoughts and even share them in the future episodes, so be sure to reach out to us and let us know your thoughts. We do want to give a shout out to one of our faithful listeners.

Shawn: 01:55

His name is Colin Miller Ray Radist? Am I right, Miller? Radist. Colin Miller Radist. Alright.

Shawn: 02:02

Who we so appreciate for not only being a dedicated listener of this podcast, but he also happens to be the cousin of Molly June here. So which now that I'm saying it sounds awfully self serving and nepotistic, Molly. Just kidding, Colin. We love having our family listening in and supporting us. So keep up the good work, Colin, and good luck managing your cousin in the future.

Shawn: 02:29

Now in this episode of spiritual night religious, we are going to be taking a deep dive into the world of guilt and shame. What a way to kick off the new year. Right? And we will be splitting this conversation up into two podcasts. There's been much said of guilt and shame over the years and still much needs to be addressed as these two things influence and affect all of us to one degree or another.

Shawn: 02:53

Now we are particularly sensitive to these concepts as many of our listeners may have experienced some negative outcomes associated with the church and or religion, and we will certainly get into all of that and more. But we'll begin this first episode with defining guilt and shame and the various ways they affect our lives, and in particular, our mental and emotional health and how they affect our behavior. And in the second episode, we'll focus on how religion and the church have used it historically and in today's times, and we will try to offer our best intended interpretation of them. Okay. That was a lot.

Shawn: 03:30

So James and Molly, let's get this podcast started. Molly, why don't you start by letting us know how your Christmas and New Year's went, and then we'll jump over to James. What you got, Molly? How was it?

Mollie: 03:41

Hey, friends. I had an awesome break. I am a campus minister, and so we get we call it a break. We still work really, but we do have some time off that we get to hang out with friends and family. And Baker, my husband, and I, this was our first Christmas together in our house, married.

Mollie: 03:58

And my family came up from New Jersey and my immediate family. And then Baker's mom and stepfather came up and we got to spend Christmas together, which was really special. And we're excited to start a new tradition. What about you, James?

James: 04:14

This is my first Christmas, a new year's in a new church. And there was a lot of things that went on. There were a lot it was a busy time. Busy is okay, but busy is definitely busy. So, it was great.

James: 04:33

My son-in-law, new son-in-law, son-in-law came up with my daughter and we got to spend Christmas with them, Christmas week with them and it was great to have them here. So, it was, I wouldn't say it was restful, but it was deeply pleasant.

Shawn: 04:51

Nice. Very good. And we just kind of stuck around for the first time in a while. It was kind of nice to not have to travel a whole lot. But we did have a chance to see a little bit of family.

Shawn: 05:06

Melissa ended up my wife ended up dealing with COVID, and somehow, miraculously, I was able to slither out of that and not get that. But so it it really kind of afforded us a chance to just stay low, stay quiet. And so that was really cool. One of the things that we did a little differently this year, instead of doing the Christmas presents kinds of things, we just asked everyone what was a an organization that was near and dear to their heart that we could donate to. And so we kinda did that.

Shawn: 05:42

And I thought that was kind of kind of neat this year. That was Yeah. That was really cool. But other than that, just kinda low key didn't drink as much eggnog as I thought I was going to. So that's always good.

Shawn: 05:55

Right? But maybe next year. Right? Yeah. So good stuff.

Shawn: 06:03

Good stuff. And here we are. I mean, January. And let's celebrate a little bit here, folks, because we are one years old now.

Mollie: 06:12

Woo hoo. Can you

Shawn: 06:13

believe that? We started January 2025, and we made it full circle.

Mollie: 06:20

We did it.

Shawn: 06:21

Yay. Woo hoo.

Mollie: 06:23

One year old. Only

Shawn: 06:25

the beginning. Oh, no. The best is yet to come. And so very exciting. Very very good stuff.

Shawn: 06:32

But now we're gonna talk a little bit about guilt and shame. And so this should be a fun podcast. Right? But one that is very necessary. Right?

Shawn: 06:47

Lot lot going on with these two friends, shall we call them. So let's begin with how we can frame guilt and shame. Right? They're often lumped together, and sometimes, folks might exchange one for the other. But I think we're dealing with two different concepts here.

Shawn: 07:05

Right? Mhmm. And so I'm just gonna launch into a dictionary term or definition. And then, Molly, why don't you jump in on kind of where you see these two at, and then we'll just get going. So Goodall Oxford, says that, let's see, guilt, here we go, is, focuses on, I did a bad thing.

Shawn: 07:35

It's a shame a shame. Know what? You know what? I am getting all of this wrong. Let's see.

Shawn: 07:42

Guilt. There we go. Oh my goodness. A shameful, painful feeling of humiliation or distress. And then guilt is having committed a specified or implied offense or a crime.

Shawn: 08:00

And so and then I asked AI what they what AI thought. And AI says that the focus is on a behavior or, action. I did a bad thing. This is guilt, by the way. Mhmm.

Shawn: 08:18

And so the feeling is remorse, regret for a specific act, and the analogy was I made a mistake. And for shame, it's I'm a bad person.

Mollie: 08:29

Mhmm.

Shawn: 08:30

Feelings of worthlessness, inadequacy, self hatred, and the analogy is I'm a mess. And so there are a couple of things there to get us started. So, Molly, when you think of guilt and and shame, how would you differentiate these two?

Mollie: 08:49

Yeah. I was talking a little before we started the podcast about Brene Brown. She's really awesome. She's an anthropologist that studies shame and vulnerability, and she has a bunch of different books that you can tap into. Atlas of the Heart is one that's really good and Braving the Wilderness.

Mollie: 09:07

There's so many incredible books that she has, but she defined shame as the intensive painful feeling or experience of believing that we are flawed and therefore unworthy of love and belonging. So what kind of bubbles up for me when I hear that is I think when we talk about guilt, guilt is like there's levels to me of shame and guilt in that experience. And so guilt is that first level of, like, I did something bad, and I feel bad about it. But guilt can then turn into shame if we internalize that what we did makes us who we are. Mhmm.

Mollie: 09:47

And I think when we start to realize that we can be guilty about something and we can Mhmm. Write about it or say, like, maybe this is not what I should have done and try to make amends. But just because we did something bad doesn't mean we are bad. So the levels of guilt and shame and how guilt comes, I believe, before shame, and then shame is really internalized and taken deeply to a different level.

Shawn: 10:10

Mhmm. And so you see guilt as kind of, like, the precursor for shame.

Mollie: 10:16

Yes. Yeah. Personally in my own life, that's how I've seen it play out. Mhmm. What about you, James?

James: 10:24

Molly, I you know, you had to be so thorough that you left me like nothing to say. But you know me, I'll say something anyway. I think of guilt as something external. Something like I made a mistake. And it might have been I made a stupid mistake.

James: 10:48

And then shame is taking it to it's no longer external to me. The mistake that I made that I can learn from and move on. I feel guilt because it was a mistake. It had an impact on something I was doing in life. But I can learn from that and step forward, I'm not going to let it hang over me.

James: 11:08

The shame piece would be instead of I did something stupid is I am stupid.

Shawn: 11:14

Right.

James: 11:14

Suddenly, it's about my own valuing which is almost exactly to the letter what you said, Molly. We've internalized it and that shame makes us wonder, can anyone you know, am I worthy of anything, of love, of anything in this world? And so, when I think of them that way, shame is much more dangerous to the individual I think. Guilt is the recognition that there is a difference between doing things the correct way or the incorrect way, the right way or the wrong way. And that, whoops, you did it the wrong way or the incorrect way.

James: 11:57

I can learn from this. I'm sorry I did it. I can move on. But when you think it's you, it's a different kind of thing. It mixes you up.

James: 12:09

It mixes you up. And I could see why it has a religious impact which is by the way, next podcast, not this time.

Shawn: 12:18

Hang in there.

James: 12:20

Hang in there, come back next time. We'll talk about that more. But it affects the way we feel not only about being lovable but if the divine one of the universe could love us. And it shapes our own self talk and our language, all that kind of thing. It's just What about you, Sean?

James: 12:44

I mean, you've shared with us some definitions. What about when you think about this? What do you think?

Shawn: 12:51

Well, I think we have to start also with the fact that this is a very universal thing. I don't think anyone gets accepted out of all of this. Mhmm. And it seems like guilt and shame jump into our lives at a pretty young age as well. I think we we learn those things pretty quickly on.

Shawn: 13:15

And so I think the majority of us tend to carry these emotions, these these two concepts for quite some time. And for young adults, I I wonder what might be a little bit different for them, if anything. And I was gonna check-in with Molly to see if she had noticed if young adults were processing guilt and shame a little differently. I learned guilt and shame pretty early on, and it just kind of carried that baggage with me just about everywhere I went. And it was been exceedingly difficult to let go of.

Shawn: 14:01

But I'm I was curious, Molly, because you're a little closer to the action because you work specifically with young adults, college age students. Do you what what is you what's your experience been working with young adults in regards to talking about guilt and shame?

Mollie: 14:21

Yeah. I think that's a great question, and I think there's, like, kind of a two parter to that. I think what I'm noticing that's different than, like, what I experienced or what I've noticed other generations experience that I've been exposed to is that, especially in the church and individuals that are within the church, we kind of skip over guilt, and we just go right to shame. So there's not even that, like, oh, I did this. It's no.

Mollie: 14:48

I am this. Because of this, I am this. It's like an immediate reaction to skip over guilt. And I'm not and when I say skip over guilt, mean, like, the levels of which we are feeling our emotion. We almost feel guilt for, like, a second, and then we sit in that shame.

Mollie: 15:03

And what I've seen is that shame then becomes trauma. Because once we experience that shame and we sit in it for long enough and start believing it, then it becomes trauma where this is a part of us now. And so trying to talk with students about, like, just because we do something wrong doesn't mean that we are that thing. And I know people know that, and that seems very obvious. But when you actually name it out loud to them of, like, hey.

Mollie: 15:25

Like, you may have not done well in your chemistry class, and that's okay. This doesn't make us bad at school or bad in college or not smart because we didn't do well in chemistry. Especially, like, some students who are like, they have a's in every other class except that one. Well, that's just not where your gifts are, and that's okay. That doesn't make us not smart.

Mollie: 15:44

And so that's, like, a really easy example. But when we move into things that are deeper, usually, that comes with, like, religious trauma and things like that, it's really hard to have those conversations because shame also is perpetuated by individuals that are around you. And so if someone says something to you and this is a random example of, well, like, what you believe isn't right, I might start to think, what I believe isn't right. And then people who believe this, that whatever I believe is stupid, then that makes me stupid. And then that becomes another part of my identity that I carry with me that becomes trauma.

Mollie: 16:23

And so I remind my students, like, the way we say things and how we say them will impact people for that moment or for a very long time. And so that's kind of hopefully, I answered your question there with, like, that two parter of what they're experiencing in my observations.

Shawn: 16:37

Yeah. And and kinda what I'm hearing out of that is that we've really taken shame out of proportion.

Mollie: 16:43

Yes.

Shawn: 16:44

Yeah. Yes.

Mollie: 16:45

That's an immediate response.

Shawn: 16:47

Right. Yeah. And so where it's just been something that, it's been given a lot more weight than it needs to Mhmm. Perhaps. And, but you're right.

Shawn: 16:59

I think these examples that we can use to kind of flesh out the difference between shame and guilt, I think are really helpful. And you and using those easy examples of just because I didn't do good in this boring class doesn't mean that I'm an idiot and that I'm not good at school. I think is a really helpful example for us to use in this. And and and, again, just how can we continue to kind of pull these two apart and give them in their their proper context? Absolutely.

Shawn: 17:33

And wanna really helpful.

Mollie: 17:34

Mhmm. I wanna also name the fact that from what I've seen and what I've experienced, I think guilt can be a healthy thing Mhmm. In ways of, like, hey. I did this wrong thing. Now I have this feeling that I sit with because this means that I'm processing and really thinking about the way I'm gonna respond to what that is right now or how I'm gonna respond in the future.

Mollie: 17:54

Mhmm. Because that guilt comes from knowing that in my subconscious that that wasn't the choice I should have made, and I made it anyway. Mhmm. And so that's a different conversation. I think then

Shawn: 18:04

That's a good conversation.

Mollie: 18:06

Yes. And then there's shame where it's like, is internalized. This is a part of me. So I wanna name that it can be healthy. I don't really think that healthy that shame can be healthy in a lot of ways.

Mollie: 18:16

I don't think that shame and health run together, but I think guilt and health can if they're done in the right way.

Shawn: 18:22

Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Because I and I'd love to get into some more of that because there are examples I think of where it's like, I'm feeling ashamed.

Mollie: 18:31

Mhmm.

Shawn: 18:31

And is that could that be a healthy thing to kinda move us into the right situation of of reflecting on what we've done and then trying to make a wrong a right?

Mollie: 18:47

Yes. And ashamed and embarrassed Mhmm. Also run very close together. And so I'm ashamed of this feeling. Am I ashamed of this, or am I embarrassed of what I did?

Shawn: 18:57

Alright. So now we've got embarrassment coming. Humiliation, maybe. Yeah. Right?

Shawn: 19:01

Okay. What do you think, James?

James: 19:07

Well, I have to agree. I actually think that in most cases, a sense of guilt for mistakes that we've made, provided they really are mistakes, that they are failures or whatever. A sense that we didn't measure up to what we could have been. That's what when I think of guilt, I think of I could have done better but I blew it off by doing something else altogether. That doesn't say I'm a bad person.

James: 19:33

It says that I made this mistake. Now, what I do next with that hopefully, and I so appreciate both of you talking about reflecting. Does it invite me to think about ways to do this differently in the future? I did something, I wasn't intending to hurt Molly's feelings but I hurt her feelings. So, it doesn't make me an evil person that I hurt her feelings.

James: 19:59

It means that I was callous in that moment. I made a terrible mistake. And so, it opens a door for me to say, Molly, I'm really sorry. I messed up. I know that I didn't handle that situation well.

James: 20:15

I hope you can forgive me and let go of that. As opposed to thinking I'm a bad person, I made a mistake because in this heat of the moment I just said whatever came to my mind. Shame is a much more private thing too. And I think the more it becomes the secret life I live that I'm not a good person, I'm not good enough, I'm not worthy. The more privacy and secrecy about my shame actually invites it to grow, you know, because it becomes self perpetuating.

James: 20:53

All of my self talk is I'm so stupid. What an idiot. Who makes these kinds of mistakes? You know, no one who's I must just not be good enough. Are all these things that go on, and I can say them so easily because I've experienced shame in my life.

James: 21:12

It's been a reality in my life. And sometimes I sink back in, triggered moments into that kind of shame where my self talk is, I can't believe I blew that whole paragraph of my sermon on Sunday, or I wish I had said this differently. And instead of saying, I wish I'd said this differently next week, I'll say it another way. Hence guilt. I say, man, I'm just not any good at this thing.

James: 21:40

And it just becomes a perpetuation and I do it inside. And I can't I think the way to get way to get past shame is to find people who love us and can see us and can hear us and share with them what we feel ashamed about, what we're struggling with. And when a person Brene Brown says, if empathy actually shrinks shame in our life. If we can find somebody who can empathize with the mistake that we made and the voices inside of us. It shrinks the shame.

James: 22:19

But shame thrives in the secrecy of me coming home after a day of work, sitting in my chair and thinking, man, what an impostor, what an idiot I am. I really blew every assignment today. And it becomes this self fulfilling kind of thing. So, I really appreciate for me guilt almost always can be positive provided you recognize it for what it is and try to move forward. Shame is really hard because it usually becomes internalized and secret.

James: 22:55

And until you can find that trustworthy person, then we talked a lot about trust in our last episode. Where do we find trust? Where is safe places to talk about these kinds of things? Finding that person who can listen to us empathize with where we've been and then suddenly we don't feel alone and ashamed and unworthy.

Shawn: 23:17

I think it was Brene Brown who also had talked about shame doesn't like to be expressed in words. It doesn't it doesn't like to be focalized. It it wants to be left in dark places so it can fester. It's when we talk about it, but when we bring it out into the light and express it, that's when shame begins to lose its power or its its hold on us. And I thought that was a really interesting take on on how to combat shame and how to deal with shame because we do.

Shawn: 23:52

We we don't want people to know about it, so we hide it. We kinda go inward with it, and then we just kinda have this running mental line going on that usually is not any good for us. But James, when you were talking earlier, it seemed like the when you were talking about some of the differences between shame and guilt, it had to do with what what people are motivated to do in those circumstances. And I wanna bring in just some things that doctor June Tagney had said, and she's a professor in the psychology department at George Mason University. And she was on a recent podcast talking about shame and guilt.

Shawn: 24:39

And and she says that's one of the big differences between shame and guilt is what we are then motivated to do with them. And she also recognizes that, hey. Look. We all fail. We all transgress at certain times.

Shawn: 24:55

And she says that when people feel shame about their failures or transgressions, they're, when they feel shame about them, they're inclined to become defensive. They wanna deny. They wanna blame other people, to not really take responsibility. And sometimes they'll even get angry at other people for making them feel that way. And then she goes on to say, they don't necessarily, what they don't necessarily do is change their behavior.

Shawn: 25:24

They don't own it. Maybe because it's so painful, or they you know, like James, you were saying, Molly, think you were saying also that you get into these self talk kinds of things. I'm a horrible person. I'm the worst. No one's, you know, ever done something as bad as this, or I'm just you know, all of these lies that we tell ourselves.

Shawn: 25:47

But when people feel guilt about what they've really done and they don't just focus on the the the bad they did, well, then they're more inclined to want to confess. They're more inclined to wanna apologize. They're more inclined to wanna make things right. And so I like that we're talking about shame and guilt in almost terms of, you know, what's healthy, what's good. And I think that guilty, the guilt feelings that we have are something that we can consider like this is something that is positive and we need this as a healthy way of dealing with some of the things that we're that we may have made mistakes with.

Shawn: 26:37

Right? And I

James: 26:38

think for young adults, what came up for me as I was listening to you and thinking about some of what Molly had said as well, I was thinking about when we try to make somebody feel guilty about something they've done or maybe even who they are. I'm thinking about when sometimes a person feels has been raised to feel or culture has told them that they should feel bad about their sexual identity, for instance. Then they begin to be ashamed and shamed as if who they are is bad. And there's nothing to feel guilty about the sexual orientation we have or sexual identity that we have. But once people tell you that that's bad and then you internalize that conversation, then it's really tied up in an ugly knot of shame that I think makes it really hard to get out from under.

James: 27:47

I know that that touches upon what sometimes the church has done. And we're not talking about religious institutions. But I see I talk to people who are struggling with those things because the messaging they've received is that they should feel guilty about something that many of us feel like they have nothing to feel guilty about and therefore nothing to feel ashamed about. Somebody else has imposed a set of right and wrong that is not, that is that person. So, there's also that mix.

James: 28:25

You know, what somebody else says is a mistake is perfectly fine for the other person. And then relationships, it's just messy.

Shawn: 28:38

Well, yeah. And that's getting into some definitions and interpretations of, you know, some of those things. And we'll definitely get into that in the next podcast for sure. Yeah. And that which is but it's an interesting point to bring up because what you think should make you feel guilty is not what I think should make you feel guilty.

Shawn: 29:01

And so there's a there's a little bit of that happening, I feel like, in this. But we'll definitely, you know, veer more towards that religious and spiritual side of right and wrong and where guilt plays a part, and shame and all of that. But for now, we're gonna kind of continue to talk about these differences, and how to identify them. But we're gonna take a break. Don't go away.

Shawn: 29:26

We'll be right back. Alright. And welcome back to a very special episode of spiritual not religious, where we are in a two part series talking about guilt and shame. And so we've been having a pretty good discussion, it seems like, so far of differentiating these two, kind of pulling them apart, and kind of getting an idea of which one's which and, how do we can better recognize them in our own lives. We're gonna talk a few through a few more differences between guilt and and shame, and we have some other things we wanna get to.

Shawn: 30:21

Jessica Smith is a counselor with Emerge Counseling, and she said that a difficult thing with shame, one of the differences here, is that it brings with it no redeeming path, which is kind of winking towards our next podcast where we'll kinda get more into, the religious side of things. But, she said to consider these differences between guilt and shame. Guilt is about conviction. Shame is about condemnation. Guilt is about confession.

Shawn: 30:59

Shame is about blaming. Guilt is about recognizing the truth that we have done something wrong. Shame is a debilitating feeling that we are wrong. Guilt is a sense of something true, but perhaps difficult to face. Shame is always connected to a lie.

Shawn: 31:21

So, just some more, things to consider that kinda pull these two apart for us to sit with and and think about. And during the break, Molly and I were talking about some different ways that guilt and shame can kinda play their way through our lives. And so, Molly, with that, why don't you tell everyone kind of the direction you are going? Because I think it's something we can all relate to.

Mollie: 31:54

Absolutely. So I was saying to Sean and James that for me, and I know for a lot of other people, the way that shame can manifest is by people pleasing. And so I've learned this behavior of making people think that I'm great because if other people validated that greatness, then maybe I could see it in myself, which actually just, like, created a monster. And every time other people loved me, was like, why can't I love me? And it actually made it worse.

Mollie: 32:19

But in the moment, I thought that this would make it better. And so Sean and I were joking because Sean had met me my second summer on ASP staff, and that summer, I just wanted to do everything right. And even my first and second summer, all of them really, but I really wanted to do everything right, and I had to measure up in all these different ways. And so I would, like, stay up most of the night and, like, look through the construction manual and, like, make sure that I knew what pages things were on in order to fool everyone that I knew, and I I was smart. And so Sean said to me, well, when I met you, like, you fooled me.

Mollie: 32:53

And I think that that is, like, so telling Yeah. Of the fact that, like, individuals in our lives see us, and they don't even realize that, like, most of my responses and the place that I came from was a complete shame response to please other people in order to feel like I had value. And I think that right now, I'm in therapy as we all should be. And that's really helped me, like, work through these places of, like, I am really good at people pleasing because that's a way that I've found my own self worth. And over time, I've realized that, like, that doesn't really matter.

Mollie: 33:28

And if I think I'm great, then that's what's important. And if other people don't think I'm great, then as long as I'm not harming them, then I think that's also fine. So we kind of talked about that, but I think it's interesting Sean's perspective on that situation too.

Shawn: 33:42

Mhmm. Yeah. Just kind of the perceptions that we put out there, and then just how that acts as a catalyst to to keep doing that, to keep putting up that guise, but inwardly feeling a completely different way. Right?

Mollie: 33:58

Mhmm. Mhmm. Absolutely. And I felt like too in those moments that if I didn't know it all, then I wasn't doing a good job. And if I wasn't doing a good job, then I wasn't gonna get hired back for another summer.

Mollie: 34:10

And if I didn't get hired back, then I wasn't gonna be able to be a fellow, which is, like, a year long experience with ASP specifically. And so if I couldn't do that, then I wasn't good enough. Right? Like, there was all these connections as to if I couldn't do the next thing, then I didn't have value to be in that place. And I think you can take away that specific example and use a different example in your own personal life of, like, what is something that I think is multistep that if I continue to not get that, then I'm not gonna be good enough?

Mollie: 34:40

And the story ends in a crazy way. I ended up being on summer staff for four years and was a fellow for a year, now working campus ministry. And it all ended up being okay, but it took a long time for me to realize that, like, I didn't need to do those things to get approval. I should do them for me because I love it, god loves me, and that is good enough. Mhmm.

Shawn: 35:01

Yeah. Your your identity is so wrapped up into these two things. Right?

Mollie: 35:05

Absolutely. Yes.

Shawn: 35:06

Yeah. And it could easily spiral out of control if we allow it to. And it think that you're gonna be good enough to be a fellow in the long run Mhmm. Because you couldn't do these other things. Mhmm.

Shawn: 35:20

And so that just kind of is a testament to the power of shame that we have in our lives.

Mollie: 35:27

And I think we also, in those moments, like, I negated the fact that, like, I was good at anything else. So, like, because I wasn't good at the construction part and didn't know those specific things about the job, then I wasn't good enough. But, like, looking back, like, I know that I'm a good spiritual leader. I know that I'm a good friend. Like, I know that I am able to have really important conversations with people that help them understand what they should do next or at least be a good listener.

Mollie: 35:52

Like, I know all those things about me now that I didn't see as value. I only saw if I can do this specific thing in this capacity, then I have value. It's a very interesting thing the way that shame, like, creeps in and, like, just rewires your brain to think other things about yourself. And so if you're recognizing this and what I'm saying is resonating with you, I hope that you sit for a minute and you're like, where have I seen this? And, like, even write it down.

Mollie: 36:18

Like, make a map. I've done that before of, like, what happened here that made me react like this here? I think that that's really healthy to find that in our lives.

Shawn: 36:28

Oh, and and a little bit back to your good buddy, Brene Brown, kind of spoke very specifically to what you're just talking about. She she says that we think that shaming is this great moral compass that we can shame people into being better. And and for you, Molly, it sounds like you were kinda shaming yourself into trying to be better. Absolutely. Yeah.

Shawn: 36:51

And and and she gives an example. She says, you have a kid who tells you a lie and you say, here's here's shame. You shame that child. You say you're a liar.

Mollie: 37:03

Mhmm.

Shawn: 37:03

And shame corrodes the part of us that believes that we can be different. Because if I'm a liar, if that's who I am, how do I ever change? How do I ever make a different decision? And how many people have been told things about themselves, and then they just, okay. I guess that's who I am.

Shawn: 37:18

And then they go and they just lean into those behaviors because that's what they were told who they were versus you're a good person and you told a lie, and that behavior is not okay in this family.

Mollie: 37:30

Mhmm.

Shawn: 37:30

And so she she's like saying shame corrodes the belief that we can do better and and be better. And so that's that's really interesting, how shame can lead into more destructive behaviors, than the cure that is needed. Absolutely. James, as a pastor, you have probably dealt with so many members of your congregations that have come to you with just really deep regrets and pain and guilt. And I know we're kind of maybe dipping our toes in the waters of, you know, the religious church aspects.

Shawn: 38:17

But but but as a but as a pastor, like, how are you able to help walk your congregants through these issues of of guilt and shame responses. What were some of the things that you found most helpful in having the conversation with them?

James: 38:40

Well, first of all, I have felt guilt and shame. And because I have felt guilt and shame, though it's not your guilt, it's not the same. Every one of us feels guilt and shame our way. And we internalize it, if it's shame our own way. And those guilt and shame pieces But because I come from a place where I'm not you're not coming to me because I am the answer person that I'm you know, the first thing to that for me is an admission usually in the conversation.

James: 39:13

I've made mistakes too. Everybody makes mistakes. The danger is when we let the mistake we've made name who we think we are. And so, people recognize that a mistake is a mistake. What is there to learn from the mistake you've made?

James: 39:30

The failure you've had? What can you do better maybe the next time? Are you thinking that this mistake or failure you've had says something about who you are? And what do you think it's saying about who you are? Because at least being able to vocalize and then empathize with the person about where they're feeling this feeling.

James: 39:57

And I try to remind, you know, not only in individual one on one settings but when I get the opportunity to preach on a regular basis and things is that nothing less than love gets to name us in this Nothing less than love gets to name us. That mistake you made when you were 12, that does not name you. That thing that was done to you when you were 13, that does not name you. Love names you. It may feel like it names you.

James: 40:26

Someone else may have told you it names you. So, the best I've got is you are infinitely precious and unconditionally loved for the gift you already are. Already are. Not who you'll become someday you can earn your way into God's love. You're already loved.

James: 40:46

You're already precious. And you are a gift. And if you live the gift where you are now perhaps you'll see this differently. But also recognizing that where you are is where you are. So, if you come into my office, if you sit down with me for a cup of coffee and you feel ashamed, I don't have any magic words to get you to the other side of that.

James: 41:07

Except to say, you know, everybody has people make mistakes like that. You made a mistake. Know, identifying and helping people hear themselves. So, that's yeah, that touches on the religious side of things but people do look to me, you know. And I can either exacerbate their sense of guilt and shame by pushing harder and saying, yeah, you ought to feel bad.

James: 41:36

And I hope you know that names you forever. And sadly, I think there are people in the world who tell you that. Know, you made that one mistake for the rest of your life. That's all they see every time I see you. Oh, that's that person that made that terrible mistake.

James: 41:55

But that's not who God is. And that's I know that's crossing into the religious side. That's not who God is. And I think if we can model accepting people right where they are, giving them safe spaces to talk about the struggles that they have without judgment. Then there's less need to secretly hide away shame about how unworthy we are.

Shawn: 42:23

It's it's interesting to talk about guilt as being a healthy thing to have and to to process. Growing up, I just always thought if you were guilty, that was a bad thing. Yeah. And so it's I appreciate the fact that we can talk about guilt in in a way that is actually helpful for us. And it moves us into a better place.

Shawn: 42:52

Particularly how guilt, if it inspires empathy for the person that we've hurt or done wrong to

James: 42:58

Mhmm.

Shawn: 42:59

I think that's a that's a big marker that we can look for when we're talking about guilt. And is that is that something that we feel? Is that is that come out? Is it expressed? And then trying to to make it right, that comes from guilt.

Shawn: 43:18

And I and I I don't know. I'm just expressing that. I'm not really going anywhere with it. I just think it's interesting to to talk about guilt in in a in a positive way.

Mollie: 43:29

Mhmm.

Shawn: 43:30

What do you guys think?

Mollie: 43:32

Yeah. I think for me in my life, guilt hasn't always been a positive thing. Like, as a kid, I think we don't fully understand what guilt, like, really means. And so we're like, oh, this feeling that I'm having, I don't like it. And we name it as, like if someone names it to us, maybe, oh, are you feeling guilty?

Mollie: 43:50

Like, that happens sometimes. And so we name it guilt. And then over time, like, it changes form, and it starts to look different. And then it shame enters the picture, and it's like, how do we name all this stuff? And for myself and in this I know everyone's always like, what's your, like, New Year's thing?

Mollie: 44:08

And it's not really like that. I just am like, as I move through this new chapter, reminding myself that, like, naming things gives us power. So if we can name it and say, like, I'm having guilt, but guilt is healthy. This specific guilt is healthy. How can I use it to be better later?

Mollie: 44:28

Mhmm. That's a completely different conversation than, I have this guilt. This guilt is eating me alive. I'm not gonna tell anyone about it. It's gonna become shame, and then I'm gonna live in this place for ten years because I'm not gonna name it.

Mollie: 44:39

And so, like, saving us from ourselves, naming it so that we know how we can move forward. I think that that's also really important to say.

James: 44:49

Yeah. Learning to be gentle with ourselves because the truth is I somehow, I think we get the impression that we're the only ones that make mistakes. We're the only ones that fail. And it becomes very self focused. And our attitude towards ourselves becomes very harsh.

James: 45:08

We say things to ourselves in our self talk that we would not say to another living human being.

Shawn: 45:15

Absolutely.

James: 45:16

We could not imagine saying some of the ugly things we say to ourselves to someone else. Why is it okay to say it to us? Why is it

Shawn: 45:27

because we deserve it.

James: 45:28

There you go, shame. There it is. The whole learning to be gentle with ourselves in a world that is not gentle with us is hard work because the model that we see is a model that's less than gentle, less than kind.

Shawn: 45:48

Yeah. And and let's spend a little bit of time towards the end of the podcast to talk about what we what we can do, when, the the shame that we have or the the thing that we're guilty of is is pretty serious. Mhmm. I think there's one thing to lie to someone's face or to steal something or to even intentionally hurt someone. But, there's some folks out there who've done some pretty heinous terrible things.

Mollie: 46:25

Mhmm.

Shawn: 46:27

And it's hard to release that guilt or the shame is is it's not just something that you can just be like, oh, well, I just need to stop being ashamed of myself.

Mollie: 46:38

Mhmm.

Shawn: 46:39

What can we tell folks who have been hurt and people who have done the hurting? Maybe we start with the people who have been hurt. I've got some folks in my life that it's just like their forgiveness plays a role here too. Mhmm. Where they've been hurt.

Shawn: 47:00

They're they're ashamed of what happened, and they just they're angry. What is, what are some things that we can tell these folks? And I don't know, Molly, again, if you're working through any of these kinds of things with young adults and how they're processing things or how they're looking at guilt and shame, what lens they're using. What what do you think?

Mollie: 47:26

I think, like, when you were talking, what kinda came to my mind in terms of, like, if someone's been hurt by someone in a pretty drastic way Mhmm. Like, some people may be like, okay. But I think, like, in my mind, like, Jesus died for them too. And so not just for me, but Jesus died for them as well. And so if the savior of our world can die for them too, then what does that mean about who they are?

Mollie: 47:56

And because they made that decision, yes, that was a terrible thing. Yes, I am hurt. But, also, at the end of the day, we're all human beings. We all make mistakes. And, like, it's only hurting me if I'm holding this resentment.

Mollie: 48:07

No one else is being hurt by what I'm holding. And so if you're mad at someone, so there's the resentment. If you're holding that shame also because you are part of the situation, like

Shawn: 48:18

Right. Mhmm.

Mollie: 48:20

That is that is okay. But when when does it become more self destructive than it does to sit with that and say, you know what? I'm gonna change. I'm gonna be different, and I'm gonna go about this differently. And I think that's all a individual and personal way to move through shame.

Mollie: 48:36

And it's really hard because it's so different for so many people, but I come back to it for myself of, like, for someone who has been hurt by someone else, Jesus also died for them. And so what does that say about who they really are? And that's a really hard way to think about it, but it's true.

Shawn: 48:55

Yeah. That's tough. That's tough. James, you got any wisdom on that?

James: 48:59

The only thing I can say is letting go or forgiving is not saying that what was done was okay. When you let go of something, you're not justifying that it was all right that the person did it. You're not saying that it's fine. You're saying is I'm not gonna take the hot coal of what was done to me and keep holding it in my hand imagining somehow it gives me power. And forgiveness does not mean reconciliation.

James: 49:29

It does not always mean that especially when you were the hurt one and what was done to you was a form of abuse or something else. Those are not things we're What I'm saying is I don't want your life It can't help but be shaped by what was done to you. If you can get to a place where you can let go of it without saying what was done, it's not your fault. You didn't do anything. It was the other person, but the longer you hold on to that, the more it burns the inside of you.

James: 50:10

And that other person may not care at all. So, forgiveness is important particularly with guilt because if you can just if can, if you feel hurt, you can let it go. But you don't ever have to tell the person that you let it go because it's about you letting it go. And you certainly, forgiveness is not reconciliation. There are people who've done things to you you can never reconcile.

James: 50:38

You can let it go but you can't be in relationship with anymore. You've learned that they're not trustworthy to be in relationship anymore. That's different than between you and God. Dodgers says, you've crossed the line. I can't let you go.

James: 50:51

But we're not God. We're not the infinite being of the universe. There are things that are done that have shaped our identity that were done to us that until we can name it Molly was so good about talking about that earlier till we can name it and let it go. Let it go and not let that which was done to us define who we are. What was done to us was done to us.

James: 51:18

It wasn't our fault. We can let it go. And perhaps, you know, not be ashamed that we did something wrong. And that's what ends up to me. That's one of the dangers of shame is that sometimes we feel ashamed for things that we weren't even positive.

James: 51:35

There was no positive part of us. But we keep blaming ourselves. It must have been something I did.

Shawn: 51:43

Yeah, if only I did this differently here. Wasn't And in the

James: 51:48

it's complex. And that's why we have people who are really experts in this like therapists who work with people really help them dig into those kinds of things. Because there isn't you know, we make it blanket like forgiveness is just magical and you can just do it for anybody. And you know, when somebody steps on my toe by accident, you know, I can let that go probably depending on how much blood was involved and you know, that kind of thing. But do something bad to me or to particularly someone I love and it's much harder for me to let those pieces go.

James: 52:26

So forgiveness is not saying it's okay that what was done was okay. But it is saying I can't hold on to this or it will eat me alive. And it doesn't mean you have to say, okay, I'm gonna make up and be friends again because sometimes that's not even possible.

Shawn: 52:48

Right, exactly. This is how relationships get destroyed, unfortunately. But I think giving those tools of how to manage that shame or that guilt, and still be able to function as a human being is so important. And our heart's desire, I think, is for young adults to hear this and hopefully process it so that you can move forward with your life. Yeah.

Shawn: 53:19

It's it's it's so crucial to understand, I think, these differences between guilt and shame. Right? Which I think we would agree guilt is is something that is trying to be more confessional and and trying to rectify the wrong, taking a behavior in the right direction. And, of course, shame is internalizing it, keeping it secretive, hiding it, blaming, being defensive. So I think those are kind of the characteristics we can look for when we're like, well, am I in guilt mode, or am I in shame mode here?

Shawn: 53:53

Mhmm. And think about those things. Any closing thoughts, by either one of you regarding the differences between shame and guilt or how to recognize them or how to process them or work through them or anything that just you guys would like to share before we close out?

James: 54:17

I do keep coming back around to finding I hope for every single one of you that you have a person or persons, a community in your life where you are safe to be you. And when you're struggling with these things, someone who can listen to you and respond to you in a way that doesn't exacerbate your sense of guilt or make you internalize even more your sense of shame. I think that this is one of the things that's most important for us in life to not be isolated if we can help it, to find communities of people that are trustworthy, who see us and love us just because we're us. So, I hope for you that you can find a person like that. I know that this is a podcast that goes out to a lot of people.

James: 55:08

So none of us can truly probably be that answer for you.

Shawn: 55:12

Right.

James: 55:14

But I hope you can find that person who will really listen and see you. Because you deserve to be seen and loved for you.

Shawn: 55:25

You

James: 55:26

are, I say it and it might sound trite but I mean it. You are infinitely precious. You are unconditionally loved. You are a gift for who you are right now. And anybody who says anything else is just a liar.

Shawn: 55:44

Molly?

Mollie: 55:45

I love that. Every time James says that I'm like, I just, sometimes I close my eyes when you say it just to, like, let it wash over me as well because I I think we all need that. But to kinda echo what James said, I hope you also have someone in your life who you can talk to, you can be vulnerable with. And I think Brene Brown also says something about, like, vulnerability use I think Sean said it. Like, vulnerability makes or empathy makes shame smaller.

Mollie: 56:13

Mhmm.

Shawn: 56:13

And I

Mollie: 56:13

think vulnerability with someone who is having empathy can really make shame very small. And so how can we work together to do that and make the world full of people who want to do that? I know, like James said, there's so many people who listen to this, but if you ever need someone to listen to you, I am more than happy to be that person. I know that Sean and James would also be that person for you. I think that that is so important in finding who we are and being able to live as our best selves is having those that support us.

Mollie: 56:44

And know that even if we don't know you by name, we support you. We're here for you, and that you are loved in this community.

Shawn: 56:52

Absolutely. And we would love to hear from you. Please reach out to us. Molly's gonna share some links, some ways to get in touch with us. If there's something about this episode that you would like to chime in on, we'd like to offer your thoughts, questions, we would love to entertain those, and even bring them on to the next week's podcast or the next podcast that we do, the part two of guilt and shame.

Shawn: 57:18

So, Molly, tell us how they can get ahold of us.

Mollie: 57:21

Absolutely. If you wanna find us on Instagram, that's at spiritual.not_ underscore religious podcast, and you can follow us on there. And then if you want to email any of your ideas to us or if you have questions, that's gonna be spiritualnotreligiouspodcast@Gmail.com.

Shawn: 57:42

Awesome. And you can find us on Instagram. Believe that we've got a collection of clothes that people can order. Like, we've got

Mollie: 57:51

some merch.

Shawn: 57:53

Come check us out. Alright. So I got a new design going and everything. So very exciting as the spiritual not religious podcast begins to grow. Once again, we're excited.

Shawn: 58:07

Thank you for being with us for an entire year and supporting us. We really appreciate that. But, yeah, email us, reach out to us with your ideas, your questions, and we look forward to seeing you on part two of this very special series of guilt and shame. And in the meantime, we send out our love to you and look forward to seeing you next time. Thank you.