Contemplative Practices for Real Life
Hey, y'all. Welcome to spiritual not religious. This is a podcast for young adults that explores
Mollie:the intricacies of God's kingdom and the modern world.
Shawn:Welcome back to our eighth episode of spiritual, not religious with your host, master multitasker who can juggle theological abstracts, producing this podcast, and witty comebacks with ease, James Henry and Molly June Miller, a delightful combination of no nonsense nonsense, curiosity, and an insatiable appetite for adventure, and me. A guy who needs no introduction but needs to have his introductions explained, Sean Winburn. So it's great to be back with you all. And, no, we appreciate you tuning in as we try and navigate the complexities of belief and faith and just plain living out our life in this crazy, beautiful world of ours. Now we'll take a deep dive into theology, practical concerns, and all things spiritual and religious that our spiritual, not religious friends may have.
Shawn:And in about an hour, we're gonna solve all your deepest questions and longings, and you can thank us later. Now for everyone who feels the deep calling to deep feeling inside your soul, but you struggle to make sense of that connection and what you see happening in the world, we welcome you. And in this episode of spiritual, not religious, our intrepid team of soul souljourners will explore the unique ways to tune into being present and connected with the divine. Now if you're someone who longs for a meaningful bond with god that extends beyond the quick candy rush of a highly produced worship experience, then we invite you into a conversation around our investigation of contemplative practices meant to anchor us a bit more firmly to the divine in a time of uncertainty about identity, vocation, what to do next, the new experiences that might involve moving away from home or traveling to new destinations. Perhaps you're starting a life with someone.
Shawn:You're welcoming a child into your world. And just any questions or concerns about everything and anything. And we want to know what centers your soul in the chaos of this life? What grounds you when trouble and uncertainty come knocking on your door? And do you look for a quick fix to numb yourself?
Shawn:How do we lean into the promises of a god who tells us that if we come to them, we'll find rest? And how do we have a meaningful connection with someone called the prince of peace in a world that is more accustomed to having a reaction rather than sitting in reflection. Now it's a pretty loud world out there with all the screaming and name calling and tearing one another down just to build oneself up. So how can we hear anything coming from a god we believe wants to have connection and relationship with us when our lives are so hectic and loud with so many voices and distractions? Now, of course, we wanna hear your thoughts and opinions on this topic, and we will let you know how to share those with us at the end of the podcast.
Shawn:Now we've got a lot to talk about, and I'm really excited to be able to turn to some truly wizened, gifted, and dear friends to get into this conversation with. So James and Molly, we've got a lot to talk about today, and I'm really looking forward to your thoughts on this subject. So we'll start with Molly. Catch us up on your world and your upcoming wedding preparation. I mean, do you still want to get married, Molly?
Mollie:Yes. That is still in the works. I get married in thirty one days, which is crazy. Wow. Yeah.
Mollie:So I'm really excited. My fiance and I are really excited. He graduates from seminary really soon too, so there's a lot of moving pieces of my world right now, but all of it's exciting and good. It's good kinda chaos.
Shawn:Good chaos. Good chaos. What what seminary is he graduating from?
Mollie:Candler Theological Seminary in Atlanta.
Shawn:Alright. Alright. And you guys are doing all of this long distance. Right?
Mollie:Yeah. We have been dating for three years, long distance the entire time.
Shawn:God bless you.
Mollie:Yeah. Because we met when I was on ASP actually, I was an ASP fellow when we met, and he was a volunteer. And we started dating a little a month after we had met, and then we never ever broke up, which I'm really thankful for.
Shawn:No kidding. Wow. That is so exciting. And, yeah, your wedding will be here before you know it, and then you'll be married, and then you'll be miserable. Right?
Shawn:Is that how it works? Is that James? Is that how it works?
James:Well, you
James:know, I'm so It hasn't worked for me like that. So, I mean, I must be
James:It doesn't work for me that way. You know, I've I've only been married about thirty three years, and I'm still deeply in love with my wife. So Yes. And I'm she's deeply tolerant of me as well. So
Shawn:Tolerant. There it is. That's the word of the day.
James:That that is not gonna be she listens to the podcast, so she will hear that. It will not
James:be good.
James:She is deeply in love with me too, and not just because I make an amazing cup of coffee.
Shawn:Hopefully that helps.
James:Awesome loaf of gluten free bread. Those are things that I can do but yes. So marriage is it is challenging at times. In fact, quite frankly, one of my favorite spiritual teachers, Richard Rohr, said of the of marriage that now, of course, he's a Franciscan priest in the Catholic church. He's not married but he said that he admires folks, you know, who are married because it's a spiritual discipline.
James:You have to learn to compromise. You have to find a path that works for two of you and that that in itself sharpens us in our journey of faith. And so marriage can be a wonderful spiritual discipline and lead ever more closely to the contemplative life or very far away. It just depends on who
Shawn:Yeah. What was that proverb about, you know, it's like better to be in the corner of the top of your roof than living with a antagonistic spouse, something like that.
James:I think that's a new Shawneean translation of that.
Shawn:The new Shawneean version is coming out. I'm really excited about it. So we'll be giving away a copy here, hopefully, one of our podcasts when it when it finally lands on the bookshelves. Be looking for it. Be praying about it.
Shawn:New Seanan version. So that's me. Good stuff, guys. Good stuff. Alright.
Shawn:Well, so, James, you're good. And, Molly, you're great. And we wanna talk about contemplative practices. And so just to kinda get into a little bit of that, I wanna start by getting into some concepts, that I'm hoping will be helpful in guiding our conversation. And just about every study out there about young and emerging adults indicates that your lives are constantly in a state of flux, of discovery, of a bombardment of choices and new experiences.
Shawn:And this plays a huge role in your mental and emotional states of mind. And in contemplative practice language, these fluctuations can be kinda boiled down, or categorized to two words that might be helpful in simplifying this concept. And they are consolation and desolation, in which in terms of this discussion, are, to describe states of your soul that if we pay attention to them, can guide our steps and aid in our prayer. And when you're in consolation, you you're gonna feel like you're growing in love and in grace. You you feel the movement towards God and God's desire for us.
Shawn:And when you're in desolation, we're moving away from God. We kind of experience a diminishment of peace and other marks of spiritual growth health. And so it's important to understand that, also, that consolation doesn't always feel good, and desolation doesn't always feel bad. There's, like, the false consolation, then that gives us feelings of pleasure and satisfaction in situations and activities that are not enhancing our spiritual growth. And sometimes when we're moving in the right direction, we can experience emotional turmoil or even deep sadness.
Shawn:Alright. So consolation and desolation, not words that we're usually throwing around a whole lot. Right? So, Molly, these are maybe a little bit, new terms to you. Do you, see that these are helpful at all when talking to young adults?
Shawn:What is what is your first reaction on those words?
Mollie:Yeah. I think I think we all understand the concept of each of them. I just don't know if they've been named in that same way for me. And now that I have that name, I can definitely use that to continue continue to use that kind of terminology with my students. I think as James was talking about it before, he said, you know, desolate.
Mollie:Like, it's a desolate place, and that makes me think of darkness. And where I feel like there's god, I feel like there's light. And so I often use that with my students of a place of darkness and a place of light. That doesn't mean that your place of light has to be where my place of light is. It can be completely different.
Mollie:But I do like the way we've named those words, and we're able to use them in a way where they're opposites. So this is what one is. This is what the other is. How can this how can this help you understand your spiritual walk better?
Shawn:Mhmm. Yeah. Exactly. And I kinda wanna move a little bit into some of these these terms. In desolation, is that feeling that you it kinda turns you on yourself, and it kinda drives you down into a spiral even deeper into negative feelings.
Shawn:And I think we can all relate to that. It's something that's gonna try to cut you off from your community. It's gonna make you wanna give up on things that used to be important to you. It tends to take over your whole consciousness and crowds out distant vision. And here, we're getting into a lot of the mental health kinds of things, and emotional roller coasters that some of us might tend to feel during this time in our life.
Shawn:And the desolation, like James was saying, earlier before we got on the podcast, it it just kind of is this desert feeling, and it, another way of describing it is it kinda covers up all your landmarks where you just sort of feel lost and drains you of your energy. And I think a lot of young adults and emerging adults can relate to something like that and feeling that way. James, do you have anything to add to the to that that kind of feeling, that kind of description of desolation?
James:Well, the only thing I would say is, it doesn't feel like a good thing when you're in in a place of desolation necessarily. But, in the traditional contemplative understanding of things, there is there are two paths. It's not an either or. One is the path of descent and one is the path of ascent. And the path of descent is letting go of all of these things that were, we imagined them to be landmarks.
James:Now, some landmarks when you can't see them, that really is scary.
Shawn:Mhmm.
James:But some of the landmarks that we have been given in our lives, I think that's the whole reason we have a spiritual not religious podcast, is some of the landmarks that religion occasionally gave us are really not very particularly spiritual connective landmarks. Sometimes they're very divisive kinds of things, landmarks, if you So the path of descent is not it may feel negative, but the path into darkness actually is a I will say it's a good path. It's not one there are even practices and we'll talk about them in the second half of the podcast, but there are practices that cultivate the path of descent as well as that cultivate the ascent toward the light, you know, moving what we imagine to be closer to God as opposed to abandoning things that are not God. The path of desolation, the early church had folks that went in third century church had folks that went into the desert whose whole purpose was to set aside all of the trappings of what had become religion in order to really be in the struggle with the soul. And for many of them that desert space was literally desert space and emptying themselves of all the pieces that were not helpful to them.
James:So all I would say is desolation is not a comfortable place to be and it can lead to being in a bad place mental health. I completely agree with that. But oftentimes the struggles of desolation lead you back to a place where you kind of figure out what really are the anchor points and what were imaginary anchor points that just gave way as soon as you started to slip. So Yeah.
Shawn:And that reminded me of when, the author, Parker Palmer, in his book, Let Your Life Speak, he talks about the way inward is the way downward. And that kind of speaks a little bit to that desolation feeling, a little bit. But, like, we've gotta go down in order to begin to ascend, and get in and get into to those those feelings of consolation. Right? Which a way to also understand consolation is that it directs our focus outside and beyond ourselves.
Shawn:It lifts our hearts so that we can see the joys and sorrows of other people, which is really important because it's so easy to reflect on what's going on in our life and be consumed with what's happening in our world and not to be aware of what's happening around us. So Constellation helps us with that. It bonds us more closely to our human community. It generates new inspiration and ideas. It helps to restore some of that balance and refreshes our inner vision.
Shawn:And it shows us where God is active in our lives where God is leading us and, can even release new energy in us. And so things that we wanna talk about today, and how we can kind of move towards, consolation, but also sit in that desolation too. Right? And I liked how, James, you were talking about desolation being something that we shouldn't run away from or be afraid of, but it's helpful to be be able to identify when that's where we're at. And I don't know, Molly, if when you're working with your young adults, now that you have kind of, like, shared in these terms, can you begin to see where your young adults are either in desolation or consolation when they come to you or when you're just around them?
Shawn:Or do you have young adults who are telling you certain things about what they're going through and now kind of like, oh, okay. I see you are experiencing maybe some desolation or some consolation. But is it kinda easy now to reflect on some of the people that you, the young adults that you work with and see them in these terms?
Mollie:I think for my students, I've seen, unfortunately, right now, an epidemic of individuals who are in desolation and who feel that, pull away from God, that pull away from things that have given them comfort before, have brought them to life in other ways. I think part of that's just the transition to college.
James:Mhmm.
Mollie:Such a different thing. So a lot of my first year students are like, this is just new to me. And so because it's new to me, things seem crazy. Or kinda like you said, the schedule and things just always happening and not having a moment to just be calm and to be in the moment and to have peace in the storm. So I would say, yes.
Mollie:I've seen, unfortunately, a lot of students in desolation, but I've also seen students who have moved through that and have come out into consolation and been like, hey. Look at look at this. Like, look at what birthed out of the darkness and the beauty that has come. And I've even seen that for myself. I asked my students to be vulnerable, and so I do the same.
Mollie:I struggle with depression and anxiety. And so with those things, I have to remind myself just because I'm in a depressive mood or a moment right now doesn't mean that it's always gonna be that way. There's there's things I can do while I'm in it to continue to help myself move towards the light and towards the joy. But I love what James said about just because we're in it isn't bad. I think I've learned a lot from being in places of desolation for myself, and it's helped me be a better mentor, a better spiritual leader for my students.
Shawn:Right. Is that you're saying that for yourself too. And it just helps, I think, articulate maybe some of the things that, as young adults and even adults are going through. And it's just helpful to understand, okay. I I'm aware now what's kind of happening within my soul and kinda gives us a little bit of direction instead of, oh, I'm not really certain of what I need to do.
Shawn:And so having these kind of concepts in our minds, I think, will help move our conversation forward. And I I wanna share a little bit from, of a guy that I just learned about. His name is, or his name was father Thomas Keating, and he is a founding member, and spiritual guide of the Contemplative Outreach, which is located in West Milford, New Jersey. And you can check them out, at ContemplativeOutreach.org. And, father Keating was one of the principal architects and teachers of the Christian contemplative prayer movement, most notably, something called the centering prayer.
Shawn:Mhmm. And father Keating passed away in 2018, but left this legacy of contemplative practice that, we're gonna kinda get into a little bit. But I did wanna just share, a little bit of what centering prayer was because this is something that, I learned a little bit more about. I I know some other practices similar to that, but this was a little bit newer to me. And centering prayer is a receptive method of Christian silent prayer, that deepens our relationship with God, the indwelling presence.
Shawn:It's a prayer in which we can experience God's presence within us, and it's been described as closer than breathing, closer than thinking, closer than consciousness itself. And so for people who are looking for ways to connect with god, this might be something that, might be very helpful. And, James, you you're familiar with, father Keating, and some of his practices. Is this something that you have, employed in your years of ministry? And if so, how how is have you experienced this?
Shawn:How have you been able to use this practice with the folks that you minister to?
James:Centering prayer, which is the practice that Thomas Keating teaches, has been my twice a day practice for the last twelve years. So it is part of the path of descent, not the path of ascent. Is the abandonment of the process, the movement in that particular way is what I like to think of as the four R's, you retain no thought, you resist no thought, you react to no thought that arises into you emotionally and you always return to your intention using a sacred word. So rather than a mantra and a lot of us sent use a mantra. We can talk more about this in the second half because it's practices, but centering prayer, prior to the pandemic, we did centering prayer every Tuesday night at St.
James:James, the church that I serve. So people came every Tuesday night and what's intriguing to me, they came of all ages, including a regular young adult who actually led Centering Prayer, volunteered to lead Centering Prayer when I was not able to be there on a Tuesday night, she would lead Centering Prayer.
Shawn:Okay.
James:And several people told me it got them through the most struggling difficult times of their lives, being able to let go of a thought that is arising for them, learning to because it's a practice you do, but then it becomes a way of seeing. You begin to feel thoughts rising in you and rather than needing to say whatever comes up, you actually can head off some of those things and simply let them go. My normal response would be to say something snarky here, but I'm letting it go. My normal response would be to be I can see the anger rising in me but I don't have to hold on. Anger is just it's not me.
James:I am not anger. I have anger. I can let that anger go, and I'm not, possessed by it. So centering prayer is a powerful experience. Earlier this morning, I was sitting in my chair just five, six feet over that way doing centering prayer for twenty minutes as I let go of thought after thought.
James:My sacred word is mercy but you choose a sacred word. Again, we can talk more about that in the second half if you want Yeah.
Mollie:I love that.
Shawn:Yeah. And we will definitely talk more about that because I do want to kind of walk through that practice. But I wanna get into a little bit of you know, you're talking about twenty minutes of our time and trying to let go of thoughts, all things that might be really difficult to wrap our brains around at first, particularly young adults who they just have so many things coming at them at once and so many things on their mind, at this point in their life. But I do wanna, share a quote that, father Thomas Keating, reflected on towards young adults. He said that the spiritual journey is not something we learn about all at once.
Shawn:I think that's very helpful to be reminded that it's not like something you gotta figure it out right now at this point in your life. Because I think young adults have to feel feel they maybe the feeling is that they have to figure out so much right now, and this is just one more thing that they've got to master and have under control. And so I I really appreciated the fact that he said that it's not something we learn about all at once. The the spiritual journey takes time. The present day interest in spirituality is not necessarily rooted in a religion.
Shawn:What discipline is going to be used to train people in practices that are normally necessary to receive divine communications in an experiential way? Another issue is how to reach young aspirants at a deep level. Many young people read nothing except what is on the Internet and then reply immediately. There's little time for reflection. The capacity to relate to others is necessary to relate to God, who might be defined as relationship itself.
Shawn:God is present to everything and to everyone and is prepared to give himself to us if only we are willing to consent. And so end quote. That part right there, if we're only willing to consent, oh my goodness, guys. Young and emerging adults lives are full, and they're busy. When do they have time to consent?
Shawn:When is this gonna happen? How can that happen? I mean, give it up to, father Keating. It is said that he, was very instrumental in, establishing his contemplative practices, but his choice was to also live a busy public life instead of the quiet monastic life for which he entered the monastery. And so I I think that that is very compelling, that he was able to hold the both end of this, a busy life that's crazy, but also remain pushed into these contemplative practices.
Shawn:And so it gives me a little bit of hope that we can share with young and emerging adults that, hey. This is possible. This is very possible. Molly, what do you think about that?
Mollie:Yeah. I think as a young adult, an emerging adult, I can see for sure where the distractions are hiding, where the things are pulling us in different directions. I even you know, sometimes I'll wake up in the morning, and I'm like, oh, I have to get up. I have to do this. And instead, I'm like, you know what?
Mollie:I'm just gonna, like, scroll through social media on my phone, see what's going on.
Shawn:Right.
Mollie:And then thirty minutes goes by, and I'm like, oh my gosh. That was thirty minutes. I could have been doing x y z. I could have been getting ready for work. I could have been doing these things.
Mollie:And so I think when we put in perspective how much time we it feels like a lot of time to say, okay. For twenty minutes, I'm gonna do centering prayer. But then if we think about how much time we're on our phone or doing something different or, you know, finding distractions in the world, I think that twenty minutes feels like no time once we really realize how much we're being distracted.
Shawn:James, what do you think?
James:Well, I when I began Centering Prayer, I thought it wasn't even possible. I could not imagine sitting in silence for twenty minutes. I cannot imagine not sitting in silence for twenty minutes Just because I've seen how it reshapes my life. And the proof is in the pudding or you know, whatever the heck that means. But you know, people outside of me, people who live with me, my wife, my son, both said they saw over a period of time a change in me, a complete change from this centering prayer practice in my life.
James:So speaking from personal experience, it does change you. In fact, so much so, you don't often teach spiritual practices to your spouse or you know, hey, do this thing I'm going to tell you. But Linda was going through a chaotic period in her life and she said, James, could you come and sit and talk to me and teach me in the same way you teach other people how to and the truth is there's not one right practice. The contemplative outreach is very strongly feels you should sit twice a day for twenty minutes, and that's what they feel. And that's what they teach, and as someone who took their course so that I can facilitate those things, that's what they teach.
James:I would be the first one to tell you that. But Linda does five minutes. She sits for five minutes, it's now up to I think she told me eight minutes. It's not a measurement and it's not about, oh, I couldn't make it to twenty minutes so I'm a failure. You don't this is one thing about spiritual practice.
James:You don't need one more thing in your life telling you that you're a failure.
Shawn:So
James:if you're going to take it on, and you say, I'm going to aim for twenty minutes, but if I make five, I'm going to walk away feeling like I accomplished something, that's a good attitude. This is not about some you don't need any you've got plenty of the world beating you up, and everybody else in the world telling you what to do. You don't need one more reason to beat yourself up. So if it turns out you do centering prayer but you make it to eight minutes and that's all you can make it, or ten or two. This is not another hate on yourself kind of invitation.
James:This is give yourself permission to do as much as you can and know that if you're going to grow into it and if it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you and that's okay. It's not doesn't make you a bad person or that God doesn't like you anymore because after all you're infinitely precious and unconditionally loved for the gift you already are. So what I would say is, you know, finding the twenty minutes will become a joy and could become a joy if centering prayer becomes your practice, if it becomes the practice that really lets you consent to God's presence in your life. But it does not work for everyone. Not everyone can do it.
James:So and that doesn't make you good or bad, it just makes you different. And since the world is filled with different people, we want to help you find the right thing for you.
Shawn:Right. And so we're living in this paradox, and I'm so glad that you brought up the word failure again because I feel like we are conditioned in a way that if we aren't meeting expectations, whether they be religious or from any other construct. If we're if we're not hitting the mark, then there's this feeling of failure. And I've talked to so many young adults who just feel like they really can't engage with God because they've haven't made the effort or they have they missed the mark somehow or they feel like they've done something so bad that how could they possibly encounter a holy god that is just up there shaking their head at at the sin or the wrongdoing that they did? And and maybe we need to do a whole podcast just on overcoming the sense of failure and re reimagining what it actually truly is.
Shawn:And it's it's God continuing to hold us right as we are, right where we are right where we are. But, again, I mean, I still think a lot of young adults are living in this paradox where they desire to experience god, they desire to know god better. And yet when it comes time to do that, there are these feelings that creep in. Failure might be one of them, or that this is just too much work or effort, or it's not exciting. I I can't imagine myself sitting quietly for even sixty seconds without my mind racing into all of these different areas.
Shawn:And so to to have the grace for yourself and the grace for all of this, I think is a huge first step in getting yourself started into the contemplative practice that is meant to draw you into a closer, relationship with with God, a closer connection with God. And, Molly, I know you see this all the time with the folks that you work with.
James:Mhmm.
Shawn:How is this part of the conversation reflecting into what you're experiencing with your young adults?
Mollie:Yeah. I think I even experience, like, if I'm like, okay. Like, I was gonna read I know for Lent, I told myself every day I was gonna read a morning and night devotion. And I did it for, like, five days.
James:Mhmm.
Mollie:And I got to the sixth day, and I was like, okay. I can do this. And then I had to, like, motivate myself to do it, and I was just like, I can't. Like, I'm so tired. I'm just gonna go to sleep.
Mollie:And the next day, was like, well, I didn't do it yesterday, so I don't have to do it today. And then it just became like, I don't do it anymore.
Shawn:Yeah. It's like working out.
Mollie:Yeah. Yeah. So I did it for a couple days.
Shawn:With yeah. Great intentions.
Mollie:I was like, I'm good. I I can't keep doing this. And I was really upset with myself because I was like, why can't I do this? Like, I know so many people who will sit and read the devotion in the morning and at night or listen to it and, like, it speaks to them, and it just wasn't speaking to me. And I couldn't figure out in the moment, like, why is this not working for me?
Mollie:And I slowly realized I wasn't putting myself in a frame of mind that helped me retain and understand what I was listening to. I was just doing it to do it and have it be done. So I wanna remind you that if you're gonna do a contemplative practice, don't just do it to do it. Do it to help yourself and, God, come in a closer relationship. I was just doing it because I felt like I needed to do it in order to feel something or feel better, and Mhmm.
Mollie:It didn't help me. I didn't feel better. So I've done yoga for a while. I've kind of stepped out of yoga for a little bit, but I was doing it for a long time, like a year I did yoga for, and it was amazing. It helped me with so many things, to feel calmer, better, just, like, take that time out of my life to do something for me that was just for me.
Mollie:And so sometimes I find things to be easier if I do them with individuals who are teaching it. So if someone's gonna teach the class for me, it helps hold me accountable to do it. Mhmm. And I would go to yoga, and someone would be showing me the moves that I'd be doing. So I wouldn't have to just do it for myself.
Mollie:And sometimes we need to see that modeled. And I know with my students, they talk about that as well. Like, I need to see someone else doing it to see that it's something that I can achieve. And so that's what we're working on right now. But Mhmm.
Mollie:I'm gonna continue to push myself to do those things, especially when they're hard because it is hard in the beginning. It's so hard. But then it becomes easier. You have to go through that hard part in order for it to become easy.
James:Okay. Sometimes it starts easy and then it becomes hard. I mean, the truth is you find when I do spiritual direction with people and I sit with them, you know, they'll say, well I tried that and it didn't work for me and I was and so therefore I'm not spiritual. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no. It means that that practice doesn't work for you.
James:And that practice not working for you just because everyone you know did that and it worked for them doesn't mean that it makes you better or worse because it's let's not put a label on it as good or bad. Let's find something that fits with who you are. Maybe meditation for you is taking a walk in the woods for twenty minutes a day and just stopping at every bench and sitting down for one minute, time yourself, sit down for one minute and just listen to the sounds and then you walk on till you get to the next bench. Carry your own chair, sit in the chair wherever you are, whatever you choose. And anything can be a practice that brings you closer to God if you open yourself to it and it's worth trying, but if you find it does not work for you, it's not a failure.
James:We're back to that word again. Don't let it and say I'm going to try something else because this doesn't make me feel better about God or me. It makes me feel like, oh, there's one more box I've got to check today on my list. And I if you find yourself in that place and your self examination leads you to the fact that that does not do anything for you, then do something else.
Shawn:Yeah. And we all have the same twenty four hours in a day. Right? But yet our these schedules are packed, or FOMO plays a big part of, trying to get our heads around something like a contemplative practice that is meant to draw us closer to god so that we can hear god so that, we can, experience all that god has to to give to us. Because we believe that god wants to have that kind of connection with us.
Shawn:And it's that it's that what we call that deep calling to deep, feeling that all of us long for. I think just about every young adult I've ever come across has whether they're extremely religious or not, they've all had this interest in talking about theological matters or philosophy. It's there. And our hope is that today, talking about contemplative practices can only sharpen and deepen this experience. And, again, I love that we're talking about the fact that, we we cannot look at it in terms of us failing every time we try to, you know, do something and doesn't work out.
Shawn:Again, your life is crazy. You might be moving away from home, and you're going to college, or you're getting into the military, or you're attending a long year, fellowship period of time, and there's just this this transition that's happening. And you're experiencing deeper independence and personal responsibility and what that looks like and all the relationships that you're around and the identity you're trying to figure out and what you believe religiously, politically,
James:and about the world.
Shawn:Or you're starting a family or you got worries about finances. I mean, there's just so many things. And then, of course, you just pick up your phone and boom. It's a screen world and access to whatever it is that you wanna soothe the immediate pains with. And so there's there's so much happening right here.
Shawn:And yet there is this desire to want to move closer to God, and these contemplative practices are gonna help. So we're gonna stop right there, take a break. And when we come back, we want to dive into some of these ideas that we're gonna bring that might be something for you to consider. And like James said, if one isn't working great, you know, go on to the next. There's plenty to choose from in all different kind of variations.
Shawn:And so don't go away. We'll be right back. And welcome back to the second half of our podcast. Thank you so much for sticking with us, and we have a lot to share with you in the second half. Just right off the bat, what are some things that you guys would like to throw out there that are ways for us to consider a contemplative practice?
Mollie:Yoga.
Shawn:Alright. Yeah. What about yoga? Because I think a lot of people just think of, okay. Well, that's a way to stretch and kind of relax my my body and help it get stronger.
Shawn:But what about yoga helps us connect with It
James:was originally designed preparation for prayer. Yoga itself exists because it was a Buddhist practice for prayer. Prepared the body because we pray with our whole person. They are not thoughts that we lift up to God or words that we say. There is a way in which our entire body is a connecting tool.
James:Why would god have given us a body to begin with if it was not a sensory tool by which we could in some way know god. We don't know god just in our head. We know god in our heart. We know God in the way that the wind blows and we feel it on our fingers, in the way that we, pay attention to our breathing. I mean, there are lots of little ways that sound like little ways but if you start paying attention to where you are, when you are, what you are in this moment, I'm just going to pay attention to my breath, I am not my feelings, I am not my thoughts, I am more than any of those things.
James:Have thoughts, I have feelings. I don't think a person I wish we could fix the English language. We are not angry. I am not angry. When I say I am angry, it's as if anger is me because that's the equivalent of that.
James:That is not true. I have anger. I have sadness. I have those but I am not. That is not my identity.
James:Sadness is not my identity. Anger is not my identity. Weakness is not any of those things are not who you are. So you're paying attention to what's rising in you, the anger that's rising in me can pass right through me and be gone if I let it go or I can grab hold of it and throw it at someone. And that's essentially what we do.
James:When we feel the anger rising, whatever it is, it teaches us about who we are. In this moment, I'm angry. I'm not really, but let's imagine in this moment I'm angry. Where is the anger coming from? It's not Molly who made me angry.
James:It's not Sean that made me angry. No one can make me angry. I can feel the anger rising. What is it in me that makes me angry? It's an opportunity to learn who I am and in learning to who I am, I'm learning who god made me to be and there are pieces of myself that I imagine I can let go and that I can keep and all that kind of stuff.
Shawn:I love that. Mhmm. I do too. I do too.
Mollie:Jane, wish I could put you in my pocket and just, like, have a mini joke with me all the time to tell me fun facts about things I don't know because I love it.
Shawn:Pull out your little James in your pocket.
Mollie:He's my contemplative practice, just having James in my pocket.
James:I'm gonna pull James out, and let me just squeeze him. What he says.
Shawn:Three, squeeze him once, and then he says one thing. Squeeze him twice. He says another thing. Yeah.
James:There's a snake in my boots.
Shawn:Yeah. He's got a drawstring. Right? You don't squeeze. Pull the drawstring.
James:Somebody poisoned the waterhole.
Shawn:You are infinitely precious. Pull it again. For the gift you already are. Mhmm.
James:I know. I I I know knowing me can be quite a chaotic experience, so I appreciate that you all have hung hung in there over these years of knowing me.
Shawn:It's good stuff.
Mollie:Forward to it.
Shawn:So, like, for me, one of the things was, journaling. Yeah. It it it felt like it was more than, trying to sit still, which journaling is helpful that you're sitting still, but you're there is some movement, like in yoga. I think, yoga would be really good thing for folks who have a hard time just trying to keep their body still.
James:Mhmm.
Shawn:There's some movement going on, but there's also other things that are helping you to focus in on being mindful. Journaling was something that, was helpful for me and was I was taught to begin to just begin writing the thoughts that I had that I wanted to express to God. And then as I'm writing, I'm I'm trying to be very aware and attentive to what God is saying back to me. And then I begin to write what god is saying back to me. Mhmm.
Shawn:And then I'm that's where the conversation and journaling begins. And so it it was one of the most, fascinating and empowering ways of connecting with God that I think I've ever had where I, you know, was writing down what I thought God was telling me and then responding back to that. And then just having this conversation, I found was deeply meaningful and helpful. And and so just in the act of writing this prayer out was also helpful to kinda keep my mind a little more focused on the task. And so that was one thing that seemed to really help me.
Shawn:Also breath prayers. And that's just being able to say a small phrase or even a piece of scripture. What is it? Son of God.
James:Lord Jesus, son of God.
Shawn:Yep. Yep. Lord Jesus, son of God, have mercy on me or son of David or something like that. Right? And where you breathe in half of that and you breathe out the other half?
Shawn:Mhmm.
James:Yes. I've heard it said lots of different ways. I have said it way a way that just took too long, and then so I just shortened it to Lord Jesus, have mercy. And so it's Lord Jesus, have mercy. Lord Jesus in, have mercy out.
James:And you can do it slowly and say it in your brain, but it becomes it's another it's a cataphatic way of meditating. It is an attitude. Cataphatic. Cataphatic is the yes. I'm learning new stuff.
James:As opposed to an apophatic which is the letting go.
Shawn:Okay.
James:So there's cataphatic and you know, apophatic.
Shawn:I'm squeezing my James right now. Cataphatic. What does that mean, Jane? Ataphatic. Squeeze him again.
Shawn:This is great.
James:That's too much. I know. I will not be saying these things in the second half of our podcast because we're
Mollie:No one likes that.
Shawn:Oh, no. No. No. We we are in the second half of our podcast. By the way, if you're just now tuning in, welcome.
Shawn:Yeah. So, yeah, so breath prayer, like, me, my heart would be racing, and I would begin with a breath prayer. And it would literally calm my my racing heart. I could feel the tension releasing, and there were some things I could I could get very anxious about. And to be able to to say these breath prayers, it did.
Shawn:It just immediately brought a sense of calm and resolve. And I I just I could feel myself releasing the tension and just feeling my body relax under these breath prayers. I highly encourage that. What else what else do you guys have?
Mollie:Have you ever tried box breathing?
Shawn:Tell us about box breathing.
Mollie:So you breathe in for four. You hold for four. You breathe out of your mouth for four, and then you hold for four. And then you breathe back in your nose for four. Hold for four, push out.
Mollie:That's helped me a lot. Like, if there's moments where I feel anxious or I'm like, oh my gosh. Like, I I'm just, like, kind of not in like, sometimes I feel like I'm not in my body. Like, I feel like I'm kinda disconnected from it. Mhmm.
Mollie:And so I'm like, okay. I'm gonna box breathe for a little bit. And that really helps me kinda come back to where I am in this moment.
Shawn:Mhmm.
Mollie:You can also have a mantra with your box breathing if you wanted. Like, breathe in the breath of life. Hold in the breath of life. Breathe out the negativity. Like, you can make a mantra out of it if you wanted to.
Mollie:I haven't done that yet, but maybe I should because I kinda like that idea now that I said it.
Shawn:Alright. That's fantastic. What's something else James? What do you what do you enjoy? What has been beneficial to you?
James:Well, now that of course I'm learning Aramaic, are we really in the second half of our podcast?
Shawn:Because Oh, absolutely. Yeah. We're We're doing the same.
James:In a lot of trouble then because I, you know, I don't know where I'm gonna cut us into the second half. But, ever since I've been studying, you know, the Aramaic Lord's Prayer and Aramaic in general, there are parts that make me I think there are different words in the Lord's Prayer that are specifically, you know, the focal point. Like for instance, in your will be done which in Aramaic is really your heart's desire. So sometimes I just sit in my chair and you don't have to say it in Aramaic, it's it's magical or something. You can say, you know, I say but you can say your heart's desire.
James:What is your heart's desire? What is your heart's, what is, not my heart's desire, what is your heart's desire Lord? And I just sit in my chair quietly and with my out breath, with my in breath I listen in silence and when I'm from my out breath I say savy nak or heart's desire, your heart's desire, your heart's desire. The next line, you know, give us today our daily bread, the bread that we need. Really what it translates as.
James:And in Aramaic is bread. And means more than the bread we break that we eat. It can be anything that feeds us, feeds our spirit, feeds our mind, feeds our soul. So I sit and let that one word, give me the bread I need today, and I will tell you that I experienced that. The first week when my father went in and we thought he was everyone thought he was going to die all week long, he looked really bad and he just kept getting a little bit better every single day, I prayed, at that point I was meditating Lachma every day.
James:So I prayed for and I got the bread I needed every day. Sometimes it was spiritual, sometimes it was physical. One night, my sister and brother-in-law drove up from North Carolina because they were coming and going as they could, and my brother-in-law, who's retired now, spent the whole day cooking for us, and so he brought us a delicious meal and we went out of the ICU and sat down together and had a meal together, and it was the Lachma I needed that day, the bread I needed that day. So you can choose a word, you know, a sacred word like from the Lord's Prayer And those words the word that we translate as temptation doesn't mean it is forgetfulness in Aramaic, forgetfulness. That's what meditation is, forgetting whose we are, who made us, where we come from, that everything, owing my being in this moment breathing and speaking to you two, I owe that to God's gift of my life.
James:And I forget that. And when I forget it, that's when I say snarky ugly things about people, that's when I do bad things, that's when I, you know, when we're constantly reminded in the, Hebrew Bible to remember the Lord's, you know, remember the 10 commandments and keep them. The truth is remembering means you do them. You can't, it's not, hey, let's show our memorization of 10 rules. It is if I remember thou shalt not murder, I remember that by not murdering.
James:I remember any one of those pieces by following them. Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy is to actually be mindful of a day of rest. So sometimes it's little words like that that I've found have a much richer meaning that have become a I like to chant because the vibration of your body when you know, when you use a simple chant, know, here I am, here I am, here I am, when I say that, or if I just use a sound, oo, ee, you feel them in different parts of yourself, you connect with them in different ways and it tunes your body, tunes you. The ah sound for instance in Aramaic is an opening sound. So when it starts from a very open place, it's connected to the gut level below the heart.
James:The oh sound is somewhere feels right up here in the chest between the heart and the ah. So it is connects to the head. All right, that's enough. So there are a lot of words that I can sometimes use. When I find a significance, I sit with them and listen.
James:Yeah. One other practice that can be helpful for people, now I realize young adults are not ultra wealthy or anything like that but you can find folks out there. I do spiritual direction with people and I have a spiritual director, but someone who sits with just you and you can often find a pastor that will do this for you who will just, you know, no charge whatsoever, you sit with them and you talk. Now the danger is some pastors are going to tell you, oh that's not a good practice and this is. And you can't know until you've sat with them for a while.
James:And Yeah, I don't ever I haven't ever told anyone I don't think that the practice that they wanted was a bad practice, but you know, who knows, I'm not But find the spiritual director, sit with you and oftentimes they see things in you, in your story that you can't see yourself even as you're telling it and can remind you, well, how is that any different than what Jesus did at the well with the woman? Or how is that you know, and they find those parallels and help you see in a mirror your connection to God.
Mollie:I love that.
James:Those are some things that are out there. I'll see what rises in me. Don't want to say all of those things when we get into the second half. So whatever Mhmm.
Shawn:Which which we already are in. So, yeah, we've got other things too. Like and I wanna throw out, kind of rapid fire here, some of these things. And if you hear something, jump on it, and and talk a little bit more about it. But I know for some people, they would like to probably learn more about the examine prayer from Saint Ignatius, or Lecto Divina, which is another type of praying through the scriptures and listening for what God has to say to you us.
Shawn:There's folks who would rather experience God by walking in nature, getting outside, and experiencing god in that way, spending time in the sun or in the water or on a trail. Others find that they experience and hear god through service projects. Absolutely. You know, going and serving other people, whether that be the streets of an inner city or at a home repair job in Central Appalachia, things like that. James, you mentioned seeing a spiritual director.
Shawn:There's also counselors that
James:Mhmm.
Shawn:Could help us kind of process things that we've got going on in our life. There's countless books on this subject. Absolutely. One of my favorite authors is Henry Nouwen, who does a lot of contemplative practice kinds of things. Highly recommend, getting into to reading a a book about this.
Shawn:And then there's, online devotions, all over the place. I'm gonna recommend one called why am I, And that's literally the letters ym and I Mhmm. Which stands for why am I? And it's a platform for Christian young people all over the world to ask questions about life and discover their true purpose. This community with different talents, but the same desire to make sense of God's life changing, word in our everyday lives.
Shawn:And that's at ymi. Today is their website. Can go check them out. They offer all kinds of resources and interesting ways to engage, that might be helpful. So, those are just some things that I threw out.
Shawn:I mean, worship music or worshiping in community, is a little more difficult to do because that's more kind of like a one time, maybe two times a week kind of thing. But
Mollie:Mhmm.
Shawn:Maybe just listening to worship or engaging in playing an instrument or something like that. So, yeah, anything out of those that you guys wanna expound on a little bit more?
Mollie:I often listen to worship music, specifically need to breathe. I love them. I think they're amazing. And I listen to them when I drive a lot. And sometimes I'll have them playing in the background while I just am thinking about something and trying to sit in it and try to find, like, where God wants me to be in it.
Mollie:Mhmm. And I know that doesn't work for everyone. But for me, that's really helpful in having that like posture of God Mhmm. Before I even put on the mindset of God. I think that really helps me.
James:I listen to all kinds of music and then I listen for the implications about where I see God and all of that because I believe all creativity ultimately has its origin in God. Now, some of the way that you know, some of the expression perhaps of creativity is harder to find God in than other times, you know, I mean my of all things, this is an old country I had a CD in my
Shawn:Here we go again. We got to explain what a CD is now.
James:CD is a round optical device that is used for storing either data or music for replay later on. It often looks like a round disc, not unlike this disc but much bigger, and made of glass well, it's plastic. So you can write to them, etc. So I used to listen to CDs in a vehicle, and when I was driving to defend all my elders' papers so that I could become an ordained elder, I was listening to an album by John Barry, was self titled John Barry and every one of the songs that I listened to and not a single one of them was about God Mhmm. You know, at least directly.
James:But in every way I heard, you know, the first song is She's Taken a Shine and it's just a song about how no one ever noticed this woman who worked in a local diner and you know, Rosie, no one ever noticed her but then when she fell in love there was a shine about her and everybody was like how do we miss this, how do we miss this, and I thought about how love makes us shine in ways that we miss. And so it became, I think I even used it in some of my theological defenses of my various papers the next day, I'm not sure how that was well, how well, I'm an ordained elder so it must have been received
Shawn:It must have worked, so You're here.
James:Must have worked okay. Or at least they said, well, he's one of the whackadoodles and we'll let him get by. I don't know, But so I hear there's all sorts of people I listen to and I hear in their stories, oftentimes in various kinds of music, in their stories. I mean, there are constant reminders of the struggles people face in life and how the divine wants to speak into those struggles. And there are genres of music I find a little less inspiring personally, but then I'll come across something in that same genre that will just like knock my socks off.
James:So which is hard to do because I'm not wearing socks now, but if I were wearing socks, it would knock them off.
Shawn:That is good to know. So yeah, there's lots of different forms and and modes for us to experience, contemplative practices. We mentioned the centering prayer, and there were, I think, four steps for that. And the first step was to kind of center in on a word. And it could be anything from scripture or just something to help you kind of focus in on just James, you said your word was mercy, I think?
James:Yes. Mhmm. Mhmm. Intriguingly enough, the whole the whole Centering Prayer movement, Thomas Keating was the founder. He was an abbot in a monastery.
James:Mhmm. And all these young adults were driving by their monastery to go to the local Buddhist monastery because the Buddhist eastern religion has very specific practices, ways to meditate, ways to move. And he said to the other monks in the monastery for whom he was abbot, he said, listen, we have practices that go back as well and why can't we teach those practices? So, he assigned the monks the assignment, they went and looked, and they pulled out a thirteenth century book, The Cloud of Unknowing, written by an unknown author, and The Cloud of Unknowing is really about choosing a word. The writer of the author of The Cloud of Unknowing said it should be a one syllable word and it should have no particular meaning for you.
James:And it's not a word that you don't want a word that's going to be something you're going to then get caught if you chose love for instance, and every time you said love, then you start thinking, well what is love? Love means no, you don't want a word like that. You don't want a single syllable word that you're going to start thinking about because all that the word does is represent your intention to let go of any thought, and a thought is a thought, it's a feeling, it's a distraction of any kind, so when you hear a sound and you suddenly are intrigued by the birds singing outside your window, you let that go. So, you're choosing the word that you choose is a word that will symbolize your intention to let go of anything that arises, as it arises. You're not one way it's described is like you're a scuba diver in a river and there are boats going by and the boats are your thoughts.
James:And you just watch them go by. You don't have to grab a hold of them, but most of the time we'll see a boat go by and that's an interesting boat. We'll grab a hold of it, we'll climb up on the deck, brush ourselves off, we're on a ride going somewhere and we're no longer in centering prayer. And once we realize, we just dive back off of the boat and sink to the bottom in the silence of the flow. It's the flow of spirit.
James:So, yes, you begin by choosing a word, a sacred word that will represent your intention to let go of anything that rises up in you.
Shawn:Mhmm. Yeah. And this is a practice that you can spend five to twenty minutes in. And I think the yeah. That was the first step was just choosing that word.
Shawn:Right? Sitting with that word. And then James, what are the the last two steps of that? Do you recall? You
James:Wow. The four steps. Wow. I used to teach that.
Shawn:Yeah. So you sitting comfortably with eyes closed, settle briefly, silence, introduce the sacred word after you've chosen it. And then when engaged with your thoughts, return ever so gently to the sacred word. Yep. Step three.
Shawn:And at step four, at the end of the prayer period, remain in silence with eyes closed for a couple of minutes. Yep. Mhmm.
James:Okay. That sounds like that sounds exactly like what you're supposed I thought, for some reason I was trying to complexify it in my own mind as I was remembering it was like, there must be something complex you do with each one of those things. No, no. You think a person has been practicing it now since, oh my gosh, I guess it's thirteen years now that I've been practicing it, you would but it becomes just, I sit down, I engage with my sacred word for usually it falls away on its own. I don't I used to have a timer that would tell me drop the sacred word.
James:So I would set a timer for twenty minutes, it would go off, and then I would have a secondary bell at about forty seconds, and then I realized I dropped out of the word dropped away, but you start like it's a mantra, So mercy, mercy, mercy, mercy, mercy, mercy and eventually you're not saying mercy anymore. And then suddenly a thought rises up, mercy returns me to my intention to let it go and it passes and then it comes again. And what you discover is for about I always appreciated this when I was studying with Richard Rohr that he said, you know, about the first nineteen minutes, he spent the whole time letting go of his thoughts. The first nineteen minutes, he would spend letting go of his thoughts and the last minute, he finally got a moment of clarity. I finally let go of my thoughts this morning and almost immediately upon I was like settling, and was like this is good, and then the final twenty minute gong went off.
James:Bong! You know, so I was like in silence in my mind for five seconds. Five seconds in my mind and but God can invade. What we're trying to do is create a space where God can, I mean this in the best possible way, ambush us because we spend a lot of time in our thoughts building up these expectations that push God away? God can't give to us for all of our thoughts about God because our thoughts are not God, and our thoughts about God are not God.
James:They're just thoughts about God, and God can't get I'm trying to dodge past these thoughts you got, James. Come on, let them go. Let them go. And about the time, God dodged in there for about five seconds, and then bing. Of course, then my choice at some oftentimes like that is if I finally have hit silence with five seconds left to go and it goes bing, I just keep sitting there.
James:There's nothing that says I have to get up at twenty minutes unless I have to be somewhere.
Shawn:Right.
James:Right. And it's not about, you know, this is not we're not measuring each other, oh I can sit for twenty five minutes, oh I can sit for twelve seconds, you know, whatever. You know, it's not a it's not we don't need to compare. We just need to be present.
Shawn:Yep. Yep. And we definitely want to hear from you, all our listeners. Write to us and let us know what are some of these contemplative practices that you might be involved with, things that have made a huge difference in your journey. We wanna hear from you, and just let us know.
Shawn:Or if you have questions about any of these practices, we'd love to talk more about those with you, because we truly believe that God wants to speak to us, in a way that we can definitely hear and experience what God is saying. And I know that there's a lot of folks that you this is important to you, because you want to grow in your faith and in your spiritual journey. And so, hopefully, some of these practices, are something that you can look into. But we definitely want to hear back from you and then be able to convey those to other listeners. And so, this is how we have this conversation with each other.
Shawn:And so, Molly, James, do you have any final parting thoughts about any of the things that we've just talked about, something that has come up that you wanna share for the greater good? Molly, you got anything?
Mollie:I would say don't beat yourself up if you try a practice and it doesn't work for you. If it doesn't work for you, but it's worked for everyone that you know, that doesn't mean that you're broken. That doesn't mean that you're not working. There might just be a practice that's better for your brain and for yourself. And that's kinda what I'm finding for me that, you know, yoga might be good for me and my sister does it and it's terrible for her.
Mollie:And so just live into what's best for you and for your relationship with God because it's your own and it's no one else's.
Shawn:Great.
James:Don't be afraid to ask questions. And if you don't like the answer, ask somebody else. The truth is this spiritual journey that each one of us on, there are some mileposts that everyone likes to point to and say these are the mileposts. You may not ever see the mileposts that they tell you is the one that everybody is supposed to see. And so ask somebody else.
James:Ask somebody else and no matter how spiritually learned, religiously credentialed they are, we are all human beings. And so we may offer a piece of information that is not all that wise. All of us are just doing our best so don't be afraid to ask questions. And if you're not satisfied with the answer, don't be afraid to ask, push a little deeper. And if the person pushes back and is unable to do with that, then maybe this is not a person to be in a conversation with about the Find somebody who will be open to talk to you.
James:Somebody you might find it as a pastor, you might be in the market to find a spiritual director or spiritual companion if you will. You might have some close friends who are struggling with the same questions and struggle together. What you know, ask your questions and the other person can say, these are some answers I came up with. In the end, every one of us has to find our own answers to these questions. We have to find the one that satisfies us.
James:Religion may tell you there is these six answers and you have to have them. Well, who cares what religion tells you? I'm saying that and I admit, you know, there's Mr. Heretic James coming out. But
Shawn:There he is.
James:You have to find the answer that resonates with you. God wired your heart to be like the pinging device that when you hear the truth and it sounds deeply true, this is true, trust yourself. You can test it, but trust yourself and you're enough for this journey and it's worth the continued search.
Shawn:Okay. In just a second, Molly's going to tell us all how to get ahold of us and we definitely want to hear from you. Thank you again for tuning in. I know this might have run a little bit long, but hopefully it was worth the wait. And your patience with us is just, we're very thankful for that.
Shawn:And just know that you have us in your corner. And if you have other questions or would like us to kind of go on about another topic, reach out to us and let us know what that might be. We wanna hear from you. And we do appreciate your supporting us and sharing us with your friends. And here's Molly to let us know how you can get ahold of us.
Mollie:Yes. So you can find us on Instagram at spiritual.not_religiouspodcast. And then please send us an email at spiritualnotreligiouspodcast@Gmail.com.
Shawn:Alright. Well, we hope to hear from you, and, hopefully, this was a meaningful time with us. And we look forward to our next conversation very soon. And in the meantime, know you are loved and know you are just well thought of by us and by God, and we look forward to see you guys next time. God bless.
Creators and Guests
