Spiritual, Not Religious

Hey, y'all. Welcome to Spiritual Not Religious. This is a podcast for young adults that explores the

intricacies of God's kingdom and the modern world.

Welcome back to another episode of Spiritual Not Religious theologian who loves Jesus so much that he is learning how to speak Aramaic so that when he prays, Jesus will finally understand him. James Henry, and a spiritual leader and guru to young adults at the University of Tennessee in Martin in Western Tennessee, who is notoriously known for owning a pair of overalls for every formal and informal occasion and perhaps even to her upcoming wedding, Molly June Miller. And last and very least, a guy who enjoys telling dad jokes because I'm so apparent, yours truly, Sean Winburn. Now look, we are truly excited that you are joining us as we take a bit of a stroll down the highway of life and belief in how the two intersect in the lives of young and emerging adults somewhere in that 18 30 something range, and you're trying to make a little sense of it all. Now if you found yourself saying you're spiritual, not religious, then welcome to our little online family who invites you to come on in, have a seat on our virtual couch and grab a digital drink of your choice as we chat about all kinds of topics relating to faith, belief, God, the church, spirituality, and religion.

Now for everyone who feels that deep calling to deep feeling inside your soul, but you're struggling to make sense of that connection, what they see actually happening in the world, we welcome you. Now in this episode of Spiritual Not Religious, we're gonna take a look at a subject that involves the roadblocks that have deeply affected our faith journeys and keep folks from engaging in communities of faith around them. Now I think it's safe to say that most of us have experienced roadblocks during some point in our lives. Now whether they are literal roadblocks, on the highway that that kept us from going in the direction we were hoping to go were metaphorical roadblocks that get in our way mentally or cause relationship issues in our families, friendships, or with the people we consider to be our soulmate. And in this podcast, we take a look at how roadblocks keep the spiritually curious at bay and how we can thoughtfully consider how to reimagine creating space and place for healthy spiritual conversations to take place without judgment and for meaningful community to be cultivated.

And we're gonna do this and so much more. And we wanna hear your thoughts and opinions as well. And we will let you know how to share those with us at the end of the podcast. And we've got a lot to talk about in this podcast. We truly want to hear from you and get your thoughts.

So let's get right into it. James and Molly, how are we doing, friends? Welcome back to the podcast.

We are doing great. It is so good to be here again with y'all and to just enjoy some meaningful time. I often call this time Sabbath because it just feels like a time of rest when we get to be together. So I'm really grateful for that.

I feel the same way. I, I I look forward to this time with both of you. These conversations always, open me to new ways of seeing and hearing. I love listening to the two of you, because your wisdom stretches me, and I'm thankful for that. So I'm glad to be here today.

It's a good day. And, yes, I'm plugging away at Aramaic, but we won't be trying to say any of those words today in I don't think maybe one of them will arise. We'll just see. It's always possible that Yeshua Bar Allah will you know, call out to me and say James say something and I will, but I don't think so I don't know enough things to say. There you go.

Well, I mean we hope that now that you know Aramaic or you're learning it at least that you and Jesus are a little closer.

I think I think he understands me so much better. That's how we're supposed

to. Mhmm.

Now if I only understood myself,

But anyway, if I

only understood myself, we'd be far farther along, but I digress. Let's get into the job. I'm a roadblock by digressing. Woo.

But you're a fun roadblock if those are alright. So, yeah. So we're talking about these roadblocks, friends. And, there are several ways that we can go about this. Blocks that deal with, theology, that that kinda keep people who are spiritually curious from pressing forward.

I think there are roadblocks within church communities, that definitely hinder engagement with being a part of a community of faith. And then there's some other roadblocks we can talk about that I feel like are gonna be important to bring up, such as church hurt, and some other issues, that I'm looking forward to hearing from you guys. But I do wanna author Mark Matlock, and he does a lot of work or has done a lot of work with, teenagers specifically. He's doing a lot more research now these days with the Barna Group, and but he has a passionate heart for young adults as well and it's really pressed into this crowd of spiritual not religious and he says that the the biggest shift in religion has been the number of people who are opting out altogether. You've likely heard this group referred to he calls them the nuns.

They just don't have anything that they really kind of associate with, n o n e s, not n u n s. So for our Catholic friends, let's make that disclaimer. These people, he goes on to say, don't claim any label for their spiritual beliefs or lack thereof. They don't claim any religion, but they don't always like being called an atheist or agnostic either. And this cohort is young and is challenging older Christians like me to consider new ways of thinking about the Christian faith and those people are who are outside and adjacent to it.

And so I think mark kinda sets us up a little bit with the folks who who still have this belief right this this idea of being spiritual and they're challenging others around them who call themselves practicing Christians to consider new ways of thinking about Christian faith and I think right there could be our very first roadblock that we talk about, because the church isn't exactly a bastion of creative and new ideas. We kind of like to get settled into a routine, and then we stick with it. We saw that even play out in in Jesus's day. And we could talk a little bit about that where he had to call out a lot of the the Christian leadership there or well, not the Christian leadership, but the Jewish leadership of his day because it kind of got stuck in a in a system and it was it was causing people to be separated from God. And we see that playing out a little bit today.

I feel like where the church has sort of gotten stuck in a way that it's not quite sure it knows how to get itself out of. So let's start right there. Molly, we'll start with you. What do you what do you think about that? The either the quote or just the idea that, the church seems a bit stuck in a pattern that it just can't seem to find its way out of that, identifies as more creative as thinking outside the box as engaging a little bit more than they have.

What do you think about all that?

Yeah. Absolutely. I think for me, I work with students all the time, and so I work with this age group constantly. And what I really see is it's not that they don't wanna be a part of it. They can't find a place to belong because there's not those open areas in churches that say, hey, 18 to 30 year olds, like, here's a class for you, here's a time for you, here's a worship that caters to you more.

I think in traditional worship services and traditional worship settings, people aren't connecting, our young people aren't connecting with old hymns, they're just not in the same way. I think if we contemporize those hymns there'd be ways that our, my students at least would be able to really feel impacted by them and really enjoy them. And I have some students who do enjoy hymns but most of the time they enjoy more of the contemporary music. And so that's just one way if a church decides to move towards more contemporary music, that's one way that we can have young adults be able to feel like they're connected in a new way and they're invited. It's really about invitation, and we're not seeing that invitation in the way that makes people want to be a part of this thing.

What about you, James?

Well, you know, what what arose for me is I was thinking just, as Sean was introducing and talking about the kinds of roadblocks that play into our lives. I was thinking about on my back of my own life. I know it's hard for people to believe I was a young adult once. It may have been at

the time,

but it was a lot you know, I still remember coming and I don't know if this is the part of this is having grown up in the church from the time I was born. But I was probably religious, not spiritual for a long time in my life because that's what I was taught to be that, you know, there were certain, checkboxes that needed to be maintained. You know, you showed up for worship, you You showed up for Sunday school on Sunday morning. When you got old enough, you went to youth group. And so there were, we've talked about boxes before, but there was there was not because the language wasn't there to even explore what spirituality meant as opposed to religion, it was, you know, I was always a seeker.

It didn't seem like enough, but no one could answer my questions. And when I would ask, so I learned how to regurgitate the right answers. And it took a long time for me to develop courage in myself. I'm sorry to say, but it's true. In myself to really ask the good questions.

But by then, I was old enough to say, these are good questions. And why shouldn't there be space for everybody to ask these kinds of questions? I think, sometimes, especially when we're uncertain of our own faith, we try to make the instead of having a divided highway, we try to get down to a two lane road and maybe even, maybe even a single lane road. This is the road. And, and I think that that is a deterrent.

For me, it was a long time. I I didn't really become totally courageous in the way I looked at the world. I kept looking for different answers, probably until about fifteen years ago. I mean and that's really late in life. And I think that young adults are unwilling to accept carefully crafted predetermined answers.

I think that this is a generation of folks who want to ask good questions and have room for those questions to be heard. Whether or not you you know the answer to it, they don't necessarily need you to have the answer, but they need to at least be willing for you to entertain the question.

Right. And and I love that you brought some of that up. I'm a Gen Xer myself. And, Jane, my my, experience growing up in the church was a bit similar to yours. It was really about falling in line, and it was more about the religion than it was about being spiritual.

And we were expected to follow the rules. Right? Don't do these things. Look this certain way, say these certain things, and you punch your ticket into the afterlife. And that's really kinda what we need to do.

We just need to, do a lot of damage control here while we're, on earth, but then we can do enough damage control, then we'll all be okay. And so it it has become more about the rules and regulations, which I feel like the church has done a really good job of emphasizing for a very long time. And, again, we hearken back to Jesus' experience with the religious leaders that he was always in a a conversation with, because they held so tightly onto these rules and regulations. And and they just began to compound, and they began to sap the fresh energy and, the spirituality of the relationship I feel like God wants with all of us. And so if you could keep these rules and regulations, then that seemed to be, you know, pretty good.

And and I think there's just, the church is kind of lost, its step with a lot of folks who do who are spiritually curious, but they run up against these these roadblocks of rules and regulations and or, if you come in here and you kinda look like us and you sound like us, then you you will be accepted. And I know that a lot of folks today, they're they're pushing back against that. The author of the book, The New Copernicans, his name is, David John Seal, and he has some insights into what the spiritually curious might have to say about this topic. He said, right now, the church's crisis is that we do not know how to translate our faith to the next generation. The next generation is not going to put up with the way we've communicated faith in the past.

And, Molly, I I I feel like that kind of goes back to a little bit of what you were saying with your work with young adults, that they're they're just, they're not gonna put up with it anymore. But the church has a responsibility, or faith communities have a responsibilities in in how to translate that faith to this next church.

Yeah. I think there's so many different ways that we can envision what church is. I know we've talked about this before that our idea of what church is is on Sunday morning from nine to ten, we go to this place and we sit there and we stand up, we sit down, we eat a piece of bread, and then we leave. Right? Like, that's what we felt like this thing has been, but it's only from nine to ten on a Sunday.

Or if you're in Sunday school from eight to nine, then nine to ten in service. There's no movement in that relationship other than that time. And what I'm loving that young adults see is that there's movement in that time in so many other different places and spaces. I have students that will come in on a Thursday afternoon and just wanna talk about God with me. I have students who will come in on a Monday morning and are like, hey, can we talk about this?

Like, I'm really wrestling with this thing, and we talk about it. So being able to have a space where they feel like they can belong and they're invited to speak about those things and invited to really go beyond what the status quo is for what we understand spirit spirituality and religion to be, I think is incredible for young adults. And that's why I really like this quote because I think that there is so much that we're missing out when we just go to church and then we leave and we don't do anything during the week. Because to me, I don't think obedience is a relationship. I think that often obedience can be the lack of a relationship.

Wow.

That's that's interesting.

I think following Jesus when I when I think about what what Molly was saying, Jesus invited us over and over again to follow the path that he was setting for us. And the path that he was setting was one that noted how important everything that we do in life is. You know, he turned every moment into a teachable moment. And I think that every moment in our life is a teachable moment. May not be teachable for somebody else, but it's teachable for me.

When I discover my own limitations, I can't do this because I, you know, I'm too old. I'm not strong enough or I don't have the expertise, whatever it may be, I discover something. It's a teachable moment. When I watched Jesus stop and talk to people, everybody else thought were nobody's. I am inspired to recognize that when I talk to everybody that I encounter, and it's it scares my family a little bit.

But when I talk to you know, they're like, oh my gosh. How long are we gonna be here? Because he's talking to somebody he doesn't even know. You know, but, hey, I'm just following the example of Jesus, and I feel like every conversation can be valuable and meaningful. And and that means that it there's if we're being honest about what worship looks like these days in a lot of churches, there's really not much conversation.

We have taken away the conversation, made it worship, which is all, focused completely on God. I I'm not saying we shouldn't be completely focused on God, but so we sing some songs, we hear one person usually tell us what faith is supposed to mean. But what about if we wanna push back? What about if we have some questions about that? Well, you know, we're here to worship, get a teaching, and leave.

And so I I do think that that model just doesn't work for people who want to be able to then turn to the kinds of questions, that both you two have, alluded to. Because I think there it I think that relationships are built on questions, good questions. Your first your first date with someone, whoever that someone may be, your first meeting with someone who could turn out to be your friend, you ask a lot of questions. How do you feel about these things? What do you and then you listen.

You listen to the answer. But, it's a conversation. It's a it's a listening. And sometimes I feel like the church feels more like a monologue, not a conversation.

Mhmm. Right. And and it reminds me of the the quote, that, I just learned recently is attributed to Walt Whitman, but it Walt Whitman didn't say it. But the quote is be curious, not judgmental. A lot of the faith community, it they struggle with this concept of being curious and not judgmental, because I feel a lot of churches, they they want to to believe that they have the answers to all of life's pressing, issues.

And they wanna be a place where people can come, make an experience, the final answer, which, would be Jesus and have that relationship. But yet it's it's it's all disguised in a rigid and immovable institutional setting, in an institutional thinking. And so you get a lot of the faith community saying, hey. This is what we believe, and that's the end of the story. There's you don't argue it.

There's no place for questions because questions raise doubts and doubts raise fears and, you know, fears the the path to the dark side. Thank you, Yoda. And so we kinda, like, lose our minds a little bit. We get really afraid that maybe our God isn't as big as we think God is to handle these issues, and or, maybe Christians feel like, if they allow a space in place for questions to be asked, like you're talking about, James, or doubts to be expressed, they don't wanna feel like they're sugarcoating or compromising their beliefs if they hint at having these controversial conversations. And I feel like it's as well.

The Bible says it. I believe it. That settles it kind of mentality. But I feel like maybe the one area that the church has kind of been creative with and has moved a little bit more away from the typical Sunday morning model, which you both have, brilliantly addressed. And that is the, the life groups, the small groups that meet on a different night that are are definitely more, conducive to conversations.

The the to to ask questions, and to build intimacy, which I think really Jesus wanted all of us to have all along. So I think there's there's some progress there. We can talk about that in the next half, but just based on, Christians feeling that fear of not feeling comfortable with having a compromising conversations, or controversial conversations. What do you guys think about that?

Yeah. I I hear that, and I think about when James and I spoke about, like, the illusion of safety. And that we because we've created religion or our churches to be this certain thing, there's this illusion of safety that if everyone says the same thing and knows the same thing and doesn't deviate from what that is, that that will always remain true and the illusion of safety will remain true then. And I think that that is harmful because once again, it's an illusion. There's like James had reminded me, like, safety isn't that is something that we feel and think is going on, but it may not truly be safe.

And so I just am reminded of what James and I talked about in a couple of podcasts ago about that. And I really I really feel like the Holy Spirit's doing something with that for me.

Yeah. I think that it well, I think in general in life, the truth is my discovery in life is that there's no such thing as safety, that we're not safe from anything. Anything could happen to us right now. I mean, that may sound morbid, but the truth is I can't live my life like there's no safety. But we have to create spaces where people feel free to be themselves.

And I'm just not sure the church has been that, and that's a major roadblock. When as long as the person you think you are fits with who we think you should be, great. If you who you think you are is not who fits with who we think you should be, not so great. We're gonna try to change you, transform you. And last time I checked, transformation is a god thing, not a, send you to an indoctrination camp thing.

You

know, if if our whole gig, if it if it boils down to if you ask me what is the church's job, it is to love. That's it. To love. To love God, to love my neighbor, to love my enemy, to love, myself, all of that. I am meant to love.

That's the whole purpose of the church. It's a it's a wonderful campus of people who epically fail at loving all the time, who come back together and say, you know what? I keep blowing this loving thing. Do you have any hints about how I could try again? Because I'm not loving so good.

Place where you come and people say, well, part of it is you're loving the wrong person.

What do you what

what does that mean? That's that's not the Jesus way, but sometimes the church's way is that way. And so it is, it is a challenge. It is certainly a challenge sometimes when we don't. The most I ever grew in my faith was this nine month period of time when I spent with these seven brilliant young adults, and they changed my life.

They asked great questions. I did my very best to create space for them to ask those questions and let them know it was great to ask those questions because those were great questions. And then I did not have all the answers for them. I could posit some possibilities they could think about or some ways to go, but in the end, it was really on them. And they blew me open in wonderful, loving ways in terms of my connection with God, for which I will always be eternally grateful.

So it sounds to me like one of our roadblocks is, can a faith community kinda take the risk of being vulnerable with people who might not believe like them, might not look like them, but to to be a part of their family and trying to figure things out and to grow. And, James, you you brought up the the topic of love, and I think maybe some church's idea of what love looks like is very different than the love that Jesus was trying to model and to teach us. And so I think there's another roadblock. And, again, the the author of the book, Faith for the Curious, Mark Matlock says, the spiritually curious are not particularly curious about organized religion. And, of course, this is why we're doing the show because we wanna reach out to these folks who are just like, ah, I'm tired of it.

Tired of the religious, aspects of things. It's just not for me. But Mark says they're they're not curious about organized religion because they think they've seen most of what it has to offer, which they have. Additionally, church has quite a bit of baggage associated with it through scandal and bad press. The spiritually curious may be deterred from more deeply exploring church because they or people close to them have been hurt by the institution.

And I think that there's that that church hurt kind of piece to it. I have talked to, more young adults than I than I care to have had this conversation with who have expressed to me that they have, grew up grown up in a church setting and a faith community only to walk away from it because of, just this rigid, immovability around theology, and then it was expressed through. Well, then if you can't, you know, believe and I feel like that is an issue that keeps a lot of our our young adults away. Even young adults who are now, getting married, they're starting to have their kids, and they're thinking, I'm not gonna subject my kids to what I went through. Molly, you again, I I kinda refer back to you.

You're you're right in the the stick of these folks. Have you been I mean, what are you thinking about that?

Yeah. I think it's so unfortunate because I think the church does have so much to offer as the body of Christ. I don't know as a building. When I refer to the church, I mean, the people, not the building itself.

Right. And

so I think that the church has so much to offer people and so much love to give, but I think that we're often just in our own way and we're making it harder for young adults to love us and for us to love young adults. And I think that's going to play out in the generations to come and how we're going to see, you know, the way things move. Because I'm a young adult that works with young adults, and I don't know that many young adults that work with young adults in the church setting because they don't want to because it's really hard. And there's so many hard conversations, and there's so many moments that just feels like, are we ever gonna make progress? And people are having a hard time pushing through that and making that progress.

I personally love my job. I think it's exactly what I'm called to, and it doesn't really feel like a job. It feels like the best thing I get to do every day. But for other people, they may not feel like that's what their call is. And so I just reflect on that moment of how can the church as the people and the body of Christ love better and remind people more and more that they're included in that and there's an invitation for them.

Well, guys, that's a really good spot for us to take a break. But when we come back, we kinda wanna press a little bit more into some of the roadblocks. But, also, let's share some ideas of, a ways that we might be able to mitigate some of these roadblocks, because I know a deep desire for a lot of, spiritual not religious folks is connection. They wanna feel like, they belong to a community of other folks who are growing, who are searching, who are learning, who are, just building relationships. And those are all very important.

And so we'll talk about some of our ideas potentially, that might help, or something for our our spiritual but not religious or or, spiritual curious folks to consider along the way. So we'll be right back. Don't go away. Hey, and welcome back to another episode of spiritual not religious as we continue on our topic of roadblocks that we are encountering, in our faith journey. And I kinda wanna jump right back into our conversation, again with, something that, the author, Mark Matlock had said in his, in his book, Faithfully Curious.

He says the spiritually curious needs safety around doubts and questions. And that kinda came up in our previous conversation where, maybe churches don't feel comfortable to provide those kinds of, places and spaces. But it is definitely, kind of urgent with our young adults who who need to feel like they have that safety, so that they can, express their doubts, their questions, their frustrations, their ideas. That's one of the things that, I feel like the church again, there's a roadblock there of allowing in the ideas of young adults. Usually, churches are governed by, some support of, council or board, that is typically made up of much older adults, and there's not a whole lot of space for young voices to come in.

And we're not talking, you know, these, young immature voices. There are several young adults who are in leadership positions at young ages. They're starting families. These people have a lot of maturity and a lot of great ideas, but they're not being invited to the table. And so that is an idea, a roadblock rather, that I think that we, also need to to deal with.

But I wanna start off with a another quote from a a pastor within the United Methodist, church. But he's a bit of a controversial guy in the Methodist church. But his book is called painting with ashes. And this book is all about, understanding how our weakness, becoming our superpower. And he gets pretty raw in this book, and and and talks a lot about, church hurt and ways in which the church has set up a lot of different roadblocks for folks, and have really kind of, I think, added to the spiritual, not religious crowd.

But, author and pastor Michael Beck, writes in his book that the religious folks in Jesus' day had a similar issue in how they engage folks outside of their religious organization. He says that the routine of religiosity and the ritual purity had become more important than the people that they, were called to shepherd. And so Jesus goes on and describes that they have this eye condition, and Jesus calls them blind guides. This is the religious folks at Jesus' day. He's calling them blind guides.

And, Beck goes on and says, but their eye condition was connected to a fatal heart condition, hardness of heart, which Jesus mentioned several times as well. Beck goes on to say, they're rigid, hard eyed surety of knowing led these religious leaders to accuse Jesus of hanging out with the sketchy, unclean people, and to dismiss his miracles as fraudulent. And then he goes on to add, we harden our hearts to those we consider unclean. But when the church becomes known as a place of harm rather than healing, we have lost the heart of the good shepherd. He who kept who who kept company with sinners and tax collectors as his, constant companions, which is so interesting to me.

I think we forget a lot of times who Jesus was hanging out with, which lends itself to the idea that, wow, you know, God is a a lot bigger than our biggest fears. And we we get tripped up on that. And, again, I think the church gets afraid of, feeling like they can engage folks who are spiritually questioning things, without feeling that they're somehow compromising their faith or their belief. And so we just sort of push those folks away and just keep around us folks who believe like us, talk like us, sing like us, things like that. Right?

And so this kinda, you know, takes us back to, how Jesus was confronting confronting the the religious leaders of his day, because he felt like they the rules, the regulations, the institution was keeping people from god, which is working exactly, in opposition to how God wanted to work. Right? He wanted to be with people, all the people. And so, James, as a pastor, kinda how does that strike you? I know that your church is trying to do all kinds of things to to engage with the sketchy, the unclean.

And as a pastor, how how does what, pastor Beck, said, how does that affect you? And and what does that have you thinking?

Well, I do think that one of our biggest challenges is that we have come to conflate, faith and belief as the same thing. And when you have, and belief is just a list of things that we feel we're comfortable to say about who God is. And as long as you can check off the 10 things, whatever your 10 things are, you're good. And I think that faith and, faith and belief are not the same thing. You can have a set of beliefs, but faith is a relationship, a sense of connection, something that gives you the freedom to say, this doesn't make any sense to me.

And when I think you know, one of the things that rose for me as I was thinking about you talking about how the church has tended to think doubt is such a bad thing. I I I think it all comes back to, you know, and when I was growing up, there was this kind of negative, image of doubting Thomas. In fact, that's what we call it, doubting Thomas. And yet, if if what he was was so negative, why did Jesus show up just for him a second time? If it was so bad to doubt, then why would he show up a second time?

Jesus showed up a second time so that he could come to have faith in the relationship that went beyond just what he thought was true and what was true. Actually, doubt is a wonderful thing because it makes you ask really good questions about your faith. And either you come back to that and say, wow, that really is true. Or you say, wow, why did I ever start believing that to begin with? And that's the kind of space that I think Michael Beck wants to see us create, and he does that tradition of following the path of Jesus.

Mhmm. I mean, here's a man who one of the very first churches he ever started, he started in the tattoo parlor. You know, he served as a Methodist pastor, but he also then planted a church in a tattoo parlor. And talk about places that we think what a church in a tattoo parlor. But what about church at a well?

Church inside somebody's house where everybody is trying to crowd at the door and somebody has to break open the roof to get somebody in. What about, you know, church down in the river? Not the clean not the clean, neat purification bins that were available in the temple or the synagogue, but down at the river where there's all this dirty water. That's where church happens. And Michael Beck models for us what it is to show up where people really are and then find, just like Jesus did, the metaphors that help people, connect.

One of the things they do oftentimes at Tattoo Church, and and and Michael was telling this in a, in in a seminar I was in, is they say, tell me the story of one of your tattoos. Tell me the story of one of your tattoos. How did why did you get that? What does it mean to you? And it allows for you to as you talk about meaning in your life, it opens doors.

And if you're safe to talk about not shunned because you have tattoos, but invited to talk about the stories, why did you get that? What what what does what does your ink say about your story? Then suddenly, the metaphor opens up for you to be in a conversation you never imagined possible.

Right. And he goes on to talk about, tattoo parlor church or, church and a yoga studio or running track or he he I think he really begins to push, our creativity levels, and to get us to thinking outside the box where a lot of church or faith communities seems that they're more bent on a an attractional model. Like, if we if we build a cool building, if we design the room with a lot of really great lights and sound equipment, and bring in a highly produced, band to make the music sound emotive and cool, then I think we can bring people into our setting before thing for transformation to occur. And then there's the missional model where it turns the church inside out to go to places like a tattoo parlor or a park to work with the homeless or, again, you know, some kind of gym or yoga studio or whatever. But something that, is has nothing to do with a brick and mortar church, but everything to do with engaging people who are outside of the church.

Molly, do you what what do you, what are you guys doing there on campus? Because campus is is not church. Right? It's you guys are doing something in a place that is not a typical kind of church. Where how do you see young adults responding to that your space, and in connecting with, with Jesus?

Absolutely. I have a lot of students that will come to my building or our building, and they'll say, oh, I assumed because there was a cross on the front of it, it was going to be a church with this huge sanctuary and all these pews. And I'm like, yeah, no, this is just another building that we gather in and that we're choosing to worship God in. And they find it to be so fascinating. And I think that that's such a cool thing.

And I also have students who, like, for example, one of them will, like, curse and they'll be like, oh my gosh. I can't curse because this is like a holy place. And I'm always like, Mhmm. If you feel like that's a way that you need to talk, you can do that as long as, like, the people around you think that that's also okay. Right?

Like, that's completely fine. This is not, like, holy ground unlike any other place. I think wherever we are is holy ground, but we can we have convinced ourselves that it's only when we're in a church or a church setting. So I think that's really interesting. And I also think a lot about how this idea that you just said, Sean, of, like, turning the church inside out, that's, like, an incredible visual to me of people all coming to one place and just being, like, almost like huddling together, like, there's, like, a disaster happening.

Like, everyone's huddling together. They're all stuck together. But thinking about the church being inside out would be completely the opposite of everyone then leaving and going. And isn't that what Jesus envisioned for the church is to be the people that are leaving and going. And so I usually tell my students, like, hey, invite a friend to worship, invite an individual to be a part of our small groups and have them come and hang out with us or invite them to an informal event.

Like, in a couple of weeks, we're going to vertical jump, which is, almost like urban air, if you've heard of that, like a, trampoline park. We're bringing our students to a trampoline park. And I'm like, hey, invite your friends to a trampoline park. This is a way to build community and have fun. And they're gonna see their director jumping, which will be really funny, and they'll think it's really hilarious.

So there's different ways to engage with that. And I think one of those ways is inviting people into events that are fun and that don't feel so scary. And that illusion of safety isn't doesn't have to be a part of that. I really like that idea, Sean, of the the inside out. I'm gonna I'm gonna be thinking of that a lot.

Yeah. And I and I think churches and and faith communities do serve a purpose in that. They are a place where where folks can come and be discipled, feel a little bit insular from how crazy the world can be, and I think it's a great, opportunity for us to gather in community and worship. All of those things are good, and I don't mean to to downplay any of that. But I feel like they could also be that we're in your comments on huddling together around the catastrophe, it kinda made me think that, I wonder if a lot of faith communities kinda treat, their places of worship that way where it's sort of we come here to kind of get away from everything that's gross and icky and, you know, just to be around others like us.

Yeah. And when really we're being called to go, I mean, explicitly called to be hanging out with the poor, those in prison, those outside of the confines of the grace of God or the church. And, and I feel like we also have another roadblock we run up against, particularly with, generation z and and y and and others, that and alpha, I think, that they're running up against this gospel of prosperity. Mhmm. A lot of Christians, are clinging to and preaching.

And, I think that that's that can be problematic and an issue, particularly. I mean, you look at the Sermon on the Mount, doesn't really, talk a whole lot about the prosperity gospel. And not that there's anything wrong with being successful or being prosperous, but at the same time, that wasn't really high on Jesus' agenda, particularly if he's hanging out with the sketchy, the tax collectors, the sinners. Right? And so, what do you guys think about just, how the church can be thinking a little bit more, inside out?

What are some ideas? We heard some from back. I mean, the the tattoo stuff, a a house church, idea. What what are some other ideas that you guys might have that might be helpful to talk about or, ideas for, the spiritual the spiritually curious folks who, what are some things that maybe they can be thinking about as they try to engage a faith community?

Yeah. I think places like Appalachia Service Project has done a really good job of making young adults and individuals feel like there's an invitation to belong. I know we've talked about this in the past, but I was on summer staff for four years and then I did a fifteen month gap year with them in between college and my professional career. And so through that, I think that is such a beautiful place where one of those roadblocks are pushed down and we're we break them down together and we talk about young adults in ministry and young adults preaching the word of God in different ways and it's such a big and beautiful invitation. And I know there's other organizations that are also like Appalachia Service Project, but that's just one that I'm specifically familiar with.

And I think that God is working in a huge way through them. And it's an it's just an incredible organization to be a part of. I just

I love it.

I think one of the things that we can try to empower people to see who are already in the community of church, because I like to think of church as the community, is, you know, during the twentieth century, the church became, focused on professionals. Professionals don't don't try this at home. You know, don't try praying at home. Leave it to the professionals. Don't try visiting someone in the hospital.

Professional visitor who's going to go and see them and bring some magical superpower with them. I do it all the time. Am I glowing yet? You know, somehow, you know, that magical superpower that comes with ordination. And the truth is, the whole purpose of a pastor when it comes down to it is equipping other people to be in the world, loving other people.

You know, using the gifts they have, the wonderful diversity of gifts. Talk about diversity. That's the church. All these different faces, different gifts, different uniqueness that they bring into the world to change it all. So we gotta get it back out of the hands of professionals.

People who are paid to do the gig because, you know, well, James can pray. That's what he's paid to do. James can, you know, do this. That's what he's paid to do. And when somebody you love is somebody who's a member of the community is in the hospital.

It's not just a paid dude's job to go and see the people. If you really love them, you go see them too. And I do think we gotta move away from that professional model that somehow, the professionals have the answers and have the right way to do it. We might have to pass tests to show that we know what our doctrine is and what we think for particular, for our denomination, whatever that may be. But in the end, what we really need is to be open to the fact that we can learn as much from somebody else as they can from us.

It's not a one all relationships are two way. It's a both and not an either or. You know, when people come to me with questions, I share with them my questions. And, sometimes they have an answer for it. So it's, it may not have been one I would have ever thought of.

So this is the so I think moving away from a professional model to a, hey. Everybody brings something to the table. And even if it's the doubts, it may be the doubts everybody else is afraid to express, which is why they're so uncomfortable with doubts. I'm uncomfortable because I have this doubt, but I'm afraid to say it because somebody might think I'm not that great. And, somebody else comes in who is, like, all about their doubts.

This is my doubt, and it's like, I think that's bad. Projection, Jungian theology, psychology, all that kind of stuff, projecting on other people. But, I think I think that, moving away from imagining we have all the answers to moving in a direction of saying, hey. You've got some really great questions, some good doubts, and let's explore those together because I love a good, you know, spelunking mountain climbing event.

Right. We we wanna be invited into the conversation, not told what to do. And, and and it's not to say that, the faith communities, the bible, and and and churches in general don't have answers. It's not to say that, there are things in in scripture that Jesus taught or that we can and can find, in in these, religious documents that, don't show us a way to life. There are definitely, some, you know, some really great rules in there.

Right? Like, let's let's let's not murder each other. Right? Let's let's not, commit adultery. Let's show respect to our elders.

Let you know, there are some really great things in there, and we're not trying to dismiss those. But when when those kinda get used as a blunt force instrument, then it really does cause, a wall that have to try to scale, to get closer to god. And so, I like how, again, I go back to Mark Matlock, faith for the curious book. He says, that there is a a a cognitive culture that can be developed. And and that and that he's talking about two separate things kind of coming together and working together, and I think the church can can look at this as a way of moving forward a little bit.

And he kinda brings up the book of Daniel. And and here's what he has to say. He says the Bible records some major cultural clashes. And in the book of Daniel, we see two cultures coming together, Babylon and Israel. And we learn how Daniel, and some of the other young, adults taken into service through this, king.

His name was Nebuchadnezzar, taken into his palace and how these young adults navigated these conflicts. There are some obvious conflicts with these two cultures. And they were, balancing what was important to their identities with learning to live and work in the culture of Babylon. Mark goes on to say, I wanna begin making the point here. Through these examples that we are practicing, Christians have likely developed a cognitive culture that simply does not appeal or make sense to a spiritually curious person.

And if we want to reach the spiritually curious, we will have to evolve our own cognitive church cultures to be a place where they can tell they have a seat at the table. James, you took the words right out of Mark's mouth. Like, they need to feel like they have a seat at our table. And I think a lot of, spiritually curious, spiritually but not religious folks do not feel like they're invited, that they have a seat at the table, or they have a place in the conversation at all. They're just, you know, being told, no.

This is what you need to believe, and here's how you need to fall in line. And so how can faith communities be a place where they really have to take the risk of, opening themselves up to some of these conversations and not parading around. Like, you know what? We we already got it all figured out. This is how we're doing things.

We've done it for, you know, umpteen years. We're just gonna keep on doing the same thing. How can we get churches to kind of, you know, open themselves up a little bit more, to the spiritual curious person. What do you guys think?

I think growing up and being self aware are very important in life, taking on the challenges. If you're self aware enough to know, I've I've got issues around this particular doubt because I I have never been able to figure it out. Then when somebody else expresses that doubt whether than, you know, not jump on them because they're, you know, you consider to be so raw for you. You have to be self aware enough to say this is an issue for me too. And maybe instead of jumping on it and having my litmus test for what's in and what's out, I say, you know, this is something I've struggled with too, and I've struggled with it for much longer than it sounds like you have, and I still don't have an answer.

But that requires a lot of trust that it's okay to not have it all together. You know, we don't we don't check a box when we say the magical Jesus prayer, whatever it is we think that it is. Those are great prayers. Don't get me wrong. I'm not I'm not that sounded demeaning, and I apologize.

But it it does not, that's the beginning. You know, if you've ever seen a race, you don't see the starting gun go off and then somebody takes a step over the line, and now they're in the race and they just stop because they're done. The race is for the long haul. You've said yes and you've made that first step, but now it's a long distance run. And that's true for somebody who's just coming to faith as well as somebody who's been in the faith their whole life.

And speaking of someone Right. Who for six decades, more than six decades, has been a part of the church. I am still in the race. All the things, and it's not just about Aramaic. But, you know, it's about faith, and it's about seeing God in bigger and different and unique and powerful ways that I couldn't before, but I have to be willing to say, I don't have all the answers yet.

I don't know that I ever will. Maybe even after this life, I will still be seeking answers or maybe answers won't matter anymore. I mean, that's the bottom line. I don't know. None of us do.

Maybe maybe love will be all that matters. That energetic presence that vibrates the whole universe into being. And I don't know. And saying I don't know is maybe something could be really good for all of us. I don't know.

If you don't know, it's okay to not know, as opposed to if you don't know, you're some outsider. Those are my thoughts. What do you think, Molly?

I'm on the same idea with James of I think what what we're called to is love, and we're called to love individuals that are like us, individuals that aren't like us. We're called to care for people well in a way that makes them feel taken care of. And I think part of loving people well is being okay with and reminding them that it's okay to doubt. It's okay to not know. It's okay to say, hey, listen.

I'm not really sure, but let's work through this together. It's okay to invite them into doubt. If they're in doubt or have a doubt to invite them into that with you of like, hey, let's talk about this doubt. How can we make this something that's easier for both of us to understand? Or if we don't know, why don't we sit together in the not knowing and know that that's okay?

I think that a lot of young adults don't think it's okay to not know things or they don't even me sometimes, I'm like, I can't say I don't know. I'm supposed to be leading these people. I'm supposed to know all the things. But I think we have to remember, like, none of us know all of it and we're never going to know all

of it.

That's part of the mystery of it. And so if we knew all of it, as Shane Claiborne says, you know, if we knew everything about God, then that's exactly who God's not. So reminding ourselves of that, of it's okay to not know, it's okay to doubt, it's okay to sit in that unknown and be okay in that. And we have to invite young people to be a part of that with us.

Yeah. That's really good, Molly. Thanks for that that deep wisdom. And let me tell you, just because you lead people and people look to you for answers, and I've been in church leadership as a pastor, associate pastor, and director of youth, young adults, and children for four decades of my life, forty years, and I still don't have all the answers. And I don't ever expect to have all the answers.

And being okay with, you know, having all that experience and recognizing that all it does is give you the freedom to recognize more freely that you are loved, that the other person is loved, and that that's really sometimes the only answer you need to have is it's there's just room for love.

Yeah. Absolutely.

Yeah. And I I think, another, point I wanna bring up that, I feel like faith communities can wrestle with. And this, again, comes from the book faith for the curious. Mark Matlock brings this up. The spiritual curious, are are not just looking for the big questions to be answered, finding meaning and all of that good.

He says that they're looking to solve issues related to finances, relationships, and health day to day. Again, more than just looking for finding meaning and significance. And so I think if faith communities can also be a place where we're helping, this age group to navigate finances, relationships, and how think the day to day, the little stuff, which turns out to be very important and big. But, if if we can be a place that helps with those kinds of things, then I think we can lean into the other areas as well. But meeting them where they're at, is a huge piece to that.

And it's it happens to be one of the slogans of Appalachian service project where they they meet people right where they are just as they are. And I think if we took more of that approach, with the spiritual curious, then, I think a lot of those fears and other apprehensions might fade away. But just more, how can we minister to folks, who are young adults in the in the day to day aspects? What do you guys think?

Well, Sean, I think spirituality covers all of life. We sometimes think it's all about, you know, spirit. Well, it includes how I handle my budget. It includes how, you know, I spend my money, what I watch on TV, what I do at the movies, how I treat people that I know and people that I don't know. It it it's all it's all of life.

It's how I apply for a job. It's what I do when I'm at work. You know, and whether that I I can do what I'm doing at work with integrity. And if you can't do it, what's it work it take integrity. What do you do about that?

Well, that's a spiritual question. And we have to help people by listening to them ask those kinds of questions and then help them discern for themselves where spirit is calling them in that moment. And, I think that you you pointed something very important when you talk about budget, when you talked about all those things. Spirit, we need to meet people. Some people just know how to need to know how to write a resume.

Well, that's a a spiritual thing. How do you describe who you are on on a single sheet of paper with a list of, of of accomplishments, which is not who you are, but, is what you've done. Two separate things, but we won't that's probably another podcast. But, I mean, how do we help people describe themselves and then represent themselves in the world? That's a spiritual thing.

What about you, Molly?

I think the way that you said that, James, reminded me of kind of the culture that we live in today and that young adults are growing up in is you are what you do is what, like, what you do, what your job is, how you spend your money. Like, all

of those

things are who you are, but it's mostly, like, your occupation and what people see you produce to the world. And I think that that's so harmful and that's something that we need to remind ourselves, which I think this could be another podcast too, but, like, reminding ourselves that we're not what we produce. We are a beloved child of God, whether we do work today or we take a day off, whether we are with our family or we spend the day by ourselves. Like it doesn't matter what we're specifically producing to the world. It matters who we are inside.

And so I really appreciate that, James, and just want to echo what you said.

Well, you guys can add that you are spiritual consultants to your next resume. Because I feel kinda like that's what we're doing. Right? I'm gonna end this on a quote, again from the book, Faithfully Curious. And as I, say this quote, I feel like kinda sums it up what we've been talking about.

And, I wanna make sure we get your final thoughts in on this, James and Molly. But, here here's a quote. It's Mark says, spiritual curiosity isn't a fire to be extinguished. It's a garden to be cultivated. Gardening takes a lot more time and energy than putting out a fire.

You've got to water some plants, prune others, and uproot when necessary. It's a serious undertaking, takes a lot of patience. It's a little risky, but the results can be beautiful. And my hope is that both, young adults who are spiritually questioning things around them, might feel emboldened to want to engage in more of a faith community or even start one of their own. I hope it also, emboldens faith communities who might be listening to this podcast to consider, maybe pushing into some new territory and considering new ideas.

And so, Molly or, James, do you have any closing thoughts on this topic of roadblocks?

I like the idea that you talked about with the garden and how a garden takes time and it takes care. And I think part of that is the care is inviting the invitation for young adults, the reminder that there's belonging there and that you're not just gonna uproot them if they say something that you don't like. I think that there's such a beautiful visual in what a garden looks like and how we can tend to that garden better. And so in my life, I'm gonna use that metaphor of have I tended to the garden well today? Have I been able to do that well?

And I think that's such a beautiful thing. So thank you for sharing that, Sean.

I love that image too because there are certain kinds of ground that don't lend themselves to, certain plants. And you'd have to do a lot of things to those plants. You have to rotate what you plant there because sometimes what somebody needs to hear this week is not what they need to hear next week depending upon where they are on the journey of faith. And a garden, if you're paying attention, you notice that, why is that corner of my garden, like, drooping? What is going on over there?

Well, you know, they're not getting enough sun or there's not enough water. And in the end, you can't make a plant grow. You can't make it grow. You can tend to the garden. You can water it, fertilize it, talk sweetly to the plant.

But in the end the plants got to grow. Or not grow really. It's you know part of it is on the plant. It's it's again. It's a symbiotic connectional relationship Tend the garden, but know that some plants are just not gonna thrive in your garden.

They might need a different garden. Might need to call your neighbor and say, hey, I've got this plant that's not grown in my yard. How about your yard? Do you think they might grow over there? I don't know.

I'm not trying to throw away plants. But some plants might not grow in your garden because what you have to offer is not specific enough or not. I don't know. Those are I love the image of garden too. It just sent me, obviously, spiraling way out there.

So there you

go. Which we tend to do, and it's great. I love spiraling. But in closing, Molly's going to, let you know how you can get a hold of us because we genuinely want to hear your thoughts, your feedback, what have been roadblocks for you and your spiritual journey. What are some ideas that you would like to share with us that we can then, share it with the rest of our listeners?

So, Molly, why don't you tell us how, folks can get a hold of us for questions, for feedback, for thoughts, for whatever they need to tell us.

Absolutely. If you wanna find us on Instagram, we are spiritual. Not underscore religious podcast. And then if you wanna find us on Gmail or you wanna send us an email, which we would love for you to be a part of that, you can find us at spiritualnotreligiouspodcast@Gmail.com. Hope to see you there.

Thanks, friends, for listening to us. Be sure to like us and to share this episode, especially if you really enjoyed it. And we appreciate you and your support and look forward to, being with you during our next podcast. In the meantime, for Molly and James, I'm Sean. This is Spiritual Not Religious, and we look forward to our next time with you.

God bless.