Spiritual, Not Religious

Hey, y'all. Welcome to Spiritual Not Religious. This is a podcast for young adults that explores the

intricacies of God's kingdom and the modern world.

Alright. And welcome back to another episode of spiritual not religious with your hosts, the man, the myth, and the infinitely precious legend, James Henry. Now look, she has a black belt in awesomeness and enjoys long walks on the beach. Let's welcome Molly June Miller. And finally, a guy who enjoys watching reruns of Wipeout as much as the next person.

Yours truly, Sean Windmer. Now we are truly excited that you are joining us as we take a deep dive into the waters of theology, life, and how the two intersect in the lives of young adults who are trying to make a little sense of it all. Now if your mantra is you're spiritual, not religious, then welcome to our little online family who invites you to come on in, have a seat on our virtual couch as we chat about all kinds of topics relating to young adults and, well, all humans, really, who feel that deep calling to deep feeling inside their soul, but struggle to make sense of that connection with what they see in the world. Now in this episode of Spiritual Not Religious, we're gonna take a look at a subject that has a wide range of views and conjures a plethora of emotions and feelings and has been the center of much debate and speculation and lively dis discourse. Now, of course, we're talking about God.

And this subject of God is really the catalyst for all other discussions related to all things spiritual and religious. And today, we wanna get into conversations that get into God's nature and character, and how this understanding influences and informs the decisions young adults make for their lives. Now views on God are certainly on a spectrum. Right? I mean, God might be viewed as distant, angry, disappointed, a genocidal maniac, a moral monster, or only interested in certain folks or certain behaviors.

Now some think God is the author of love and created everything to be in a relationship with God's self. And other people think of God as that quirky old man upstairs or a Santa Claus type character who knows if you've been bad or good. So be good for goodness sake. Now a lot of folks mention God in casual conversations, but do they really know who they're talking about, especially when God gets included in phrases like, God, guts, and glory? Now God has been portrayed in all kinds of ways, but probably no more profoundly than through the actions of the people who claim to know God best.

And some of those examples have been very helpful for others to gain perspective on who God is, and many examples have been less than stellar. Now how can we recapture a healthy understanding of who God is based on how God has chosen to reveal God's self in the world? I mean, what examples and stories best capture and depict the essence of God, and why is it so important for us to get this right? We're gonna wanna hear your thoughts and opinions, and we'll let you know how to share those with us at the end of the podcast. But we got a lot to talk about in this podcast, and we'll be expecting to hear from you and get your thoughts.

So let's get right into it. And sorry we're talking about such a small subject, friends, but we gotta do what we gotta do. Right? Now how are you guys doing? And let's get this party started.

What's how are you feeling, Molly?

I'm feeling great. It's so good to see y'all and to be here. I'm really excited about this topic and how we can help young adults understand it better. What about you, James?

Alright. Yeah. So we're we're gonna be talking about God. And I wanna begin with something that I heard just this past Sunday from, a good friend, of everyone on this podcast right now, our host friends. But a good friend and pastor, his name is Brian Erickson, and he leads, Trinity United Methodist Church in Birmingham, Alabama.

And he said in a recent sermon that our ideas about God, how we think about God, and what we think about God shapes every other relationship in our lives. And I thought that was just so timely for this conversation, and it's a really poignant thought. The way we think about God and that shapes every other relationship in our lives. So, you guys are hearing that for the first time. How does that hit you?

What does that make you think when you think of the way I think about God, the way you think about God somehow impacts the relationships that you have in your life. What do you think, Molly? Does that does that conjure up anything for you?

I absolutely love this quote and this idea that, you know, we how we think about god helps us understand how we think about other people deeper. And I think part of that is because we were made in the image of god. And so when we know who God is truly at God's core, it helps us see other people with more beauty and with more light and in a deeper sense.

That's nice.

I wonder sometimes if God isn't relationship itself. So the quality of, of our experience of one another's connection to one another isn't, also reflective of our way of knowing God. You know, by loving someone, are we experiencing God in that love? You know, as God, You know, God's presence there. Now I don't wanna limit God to simply being a relationship, but I do think that our, the way we treat the world.

If we, you know, the way we treat the world and our neighbors and everyone else is predicated directly on who we think God is. If we think God just gave us this big planet as a playground to destroy or do whatever we want to to, then we're gonna do that with impunity. And if we think instead every blade of grass, every molecule is sacred to God, then we might treat the world differently, our neighbors differently. We might recognize our neighbors aren't always just the ones who live, you know, 50 feet that way or 50 feet that way or 50 feet that way or up there if you're in an apartment building. So, I do think the way we think about God shapes how we view other people.

Yeah. And I love how that quote really frames our discussion today. Because I I think that what you both have been saying in that how we view God is going to shape our actions and how we behave in the world. And so, if if if God is an exclusive guy who, is a guy and, is, kind of not real happy and unsettled and, kinda has an ax to grind with humans, then maybe that's going to carry out and flow from your own actions to the people around you. And it's gonna inform how you think, politically, socially, and just in every aspect of of how we carry out our lives.

And so I think it's so important that we start with this conversation. We we need to get this right. And and I think there's a lot of confusion out there too. And I think it's where young adults kinda come into play for me and the conversations that I've had with several 18 to 30 year olds who really struggle with wrapping their head around who God is. What is God?

And and why should it matter for me? And I think we started off answering that second question, why should it matter for me? Well, because it influences the decisions that you make and the the actions that, you you do around you. And I think that that informs everything that we do based on, well, what's your concept of who God is? And I think there's a like I said, there's a lot of confusion, around this, identity of who God is.

Molly, you work specifically with a lot of young adults. Are you, hearing, talking, getting into conversations from these young adults about God? What what kind of questions might you be getting? What are some of the responses that you're you're, dealing with with some of the young adults that you work with?

Absolutely. I think one of the big questions that I often get is, like, is God a man? Is God just a man in the sky who is kinda dictating our every move? Because that's what we've been almost conditioned to believe in a way. And so I have students who are trying to deconstruct that and be like, okay.

Wait. But if god is god, then that's above gender. That's above all of the things that we've created in society to put people in boxes. And I remind them that the worst thing that we can do is to put god in a box because that is not who god is. And so I try to not use any pronouns when I speak about who god is.

Like, I try not to add he or she or any day, any pronoun because I think it's important that we recognize that god is above all of those things.

Yeah. Maybe some of that language, that we do read about about God, where God is, talked about in terms of a father, or him, Jesus as a man. Maybe some of that language was helpful in kind of even trying to wrap our heads around a being that we can't even comprehend. And maybe some of that language was helpful. And, James, I'm gonna kinda kick it back over to you.

Like, kinda help us walk through that a little bit. How does how does theology kind of inform the way we we see and view God as more male centric when we know that we see God as a spirit, and is neither male nor female. That was the apostle Paul talking about that. And so but why why the right. The the concept of God as father, as male.

Can you help us with that?

Well, I don't know if I can help you with it, but I can certainly share some thoughts about how we got there. You know, when we look at the stories that have been told about who God is, and those stories ultimately, you know, most all the stories began in an oral tradition where people talked about what they believed and then ultimately were written down, in sacred texts. Now for us, the three of us were all followers in the path of Jesus. And so for us, scripture would include the Hebrew bible, maybe or maybe not the Apocrypha depending on how you feel about the extra 17 books or so, and then what we would call the New Testament or the Christian bible. And so those were all produced in male dominated society where women, women were almost chattel property.

They almost were, they didn't have the right to own their own property. They and so, it seemed to men that god would be like them, a man. And you have to you have to be very intentional not to use pronouns at all. You know, you have to we have I I can remember in seminary, it was so in the beginning, it was kinda very I won't say it was frustrating, but I struggled with being able to write papers, that didn't sound very stilted when you made reference to the divine, using other than pronouns. Because it seems so easy to drop back into pronouns.

I grew up with with a god who was always referred to as he. So every once in a while, I slip up and do that. But then I like to, to go to the other side because spirit is always a feminine word. It's it's intriguingly enough, it it's feminine in, in Greek. It's feminine in Hebrew.

It's feminine in Aramaic. And since it's feminine if you're going to refer to God as the father as he the creator as he then you've got to refer to spirit as she there's gotta be some balance there. Because God is beyond gender. But it be all of the culture of what we think of as religion today grew up in a time prior to any sense. I mean, in The United States, women couldn't take out credit cards, without their husband's permission until the nineteen seventies.

I mean, you know, it's it's taken a long time to get to a place where we even recognize male and female. God created them. And there wasn't like male and female, like, above and below. It was like, a shared kind of spiritual connection there, and an an equality, an equity, a justice between the two. Yes.

They might play different roles. So back around. So much of our conversation has grown out of societies that just assumed men were in charge. And you know, we can find little passages in our sacred texts that seem to point to that. Perhaps they got written into sacred texts for that reason.

We won't go there. We won't go there. But perhaps it got written in by

folks who

liked to justify that. And so that's how we got to this place where I think we wanted to gender God. And it's hard for us to fully understand it. I don't wanna keep going on though. It it it's hard for us to fully understand it because in English, we don't we don't think of tables, like in Fran in French.

It's feminine. So when they refer to a table, they don't refer to it as it. They refer to it as she. And, you know, a car. I mean, when when you have gendered all your nouns, there you you refer to those not gendered things by their gender.

Ships traditionally thought of as female. So we she, you know, we launched her last week, that kind of thing. So, long way of saying it's hard for us to get that gender was a convenience used in languages when there are genders involved. We tend to be more, neutral, but a lot of people wanna argue that God is, let me hit it.

Kinda speaks to that anthropomorphic language too, right, that we find in God that is helpful in describing attributes and characteristics of God. Right? And and so I think gentrifying God has just been a a quote, unquote helpful way of trying to wrap our minds around, who god is. But I I I think it's really important, for us to to begin to detach ourselves so much from, that god is literally, a male figure, and where we refer to God as when Jesus says, you pray our father who art in heaven, and then this term father becomes more, of a term of endearment really, of that signified a great love of, a love of strength, potentially. We could talk a little bit about that too.

But, Molly, just hearing what James had to say a little bit about that, what are what are some of your your thoughts around, maybe how we've come to understand God as as a as more of a male figure?

Yeah. I think that we can't blame individuals from that time period that saw life a certain way and wanted to wrap their minds around who god is and who god was because we do that now too. So we have to understand that. But I think, unfortunately, now that's been used as a weapon against individuals to say god is a man or, men are in power or there's some sort of stance that god is this white man, with a beard and that he's, you know, someone who is angry and isn't as loving as we assumed or he's someone who is Christian nationalism. Like, there's just so many different things that I think we've put god in a box for and once again, we have to remove that and remember that god is above all of those things and there's there's no reason that we can't think about who god is now in a way moving forward that is beneficial and helpful to everyone.

Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm.

I think, Sean, you hit it on the nail when you when you call them attributes of God. Because if you change attribute, which is a noun into its verbal form, we attribute to God things, and you referred to it earlier, Sean. Anthropomorphize. We put on God the things that we see in each other. And we the highest things we see in each other.

We want God to be trustworthy. We want our neighbor to be trustworthy because we and so we need God to be trustworthy. Then we have to define what do we mean by trust? What does it mean to trust God? Do I trust God that if I ask for something very specific it's gonna be done like that?

Is it is it the Santa Claus kind of God that, you know, so we have to be careful when we attach attributes to God, attribute them to God because we have to be sure that that the ones we have attributed really make any sense in terms of an eternal energetic presence that created everything over the last twenty two billion years and is still creating.

Right. And we have to be careful, but I also think we need to make sure that we're including all of the things that have been attributed to God. Yes. God has been, thought of as a strong tower, or wings that come around us, to shelter us. Jesus describes himself or god's self like a hen that wants to gather her chicks.

Very feminine. And so I think there's a both and, when describing the attributes of of God and God's character, that doing it's it's inclusive. Right? It's it's both and, and I think we do, ourselves well when we try to elevate God above at least the the gender platform. And again, our good friend, the apostle Paul mentions that, hey, look, God is either male nor female.

And I think sometimes we forget that. And, so I think that's that's a that's an interesting point, and I think it's helpful for us to kinda see God outside of that box. And, Maya, I'm glad you mentioned the word box because I think a lot of folks feel like they've got God in a box or they got God all figured out. And I've heard that if you think you've got God all figured out, that's no longer God. And so, again, trying to wrap, an infinite being, with our finite minds is tough enough, but I think we have enough clues that we can refer to, to understand who this god is.

And we're gonna get into a lot of those clues, hopefully, in this next, segment. So stay with us. We'll be right back. Alright. And welcome back, friends, to our episode where we are talking about God.

Very small subject, really, but we think it's important and worthy. And we know that you probably have a lot to say about this as well as questions you may have. And we want those to come in, and we hope that you feel like you can reach out to us. And, again, at the end of the, show, we'll let you know how you can do that. But I wanna kinda recenter us again on this, quote from our good friend and pastor Brian Erickson, who said, our ideas about God, how we think about God, and what we think about God shapes every other relationships, or every other relationship in our lives.

And this really does, carry some significance. And so what we wanna do in this second half is try to maybe reclaim, a healthier view of who God is based on, what we know and what we've seen in the world and what we see, from where God has revealed God's self to us. And one of the primary places that we see that is, in, scripture. And so we're gonna talk about that. We also see god revealing god's self in the world through the actions of god's creation and the people that god has made.

And so, I think, we've got a lot to talk about here. I personally believe that, when god made us, that god wired us for connection with god. And it's what keeps those that I think who don't want anything to do with, religion or the church, that connection keeps a hunger in our spirit. And maybe you're feeling that way where you you don't wanna have anything to do with a God that, is marginalizing folks or doesn't seem to really care, about anything going on in the world or seems too distant, but you know that there's something about this God, and that there's something in you that only god can truly satisfy and meet in your heart, your soul, and your mind. And so, we kinda wanna get into some of these descriptions and, places where we feel like god is revealing god's self.

And I think a great place to start is at the very beginning where in, the book of Genesis, this this poem, that was written so many years ago, that describes God making things, right, and calling them good. God being very pleased with what was made. And I think that's a great spot to start off because, I I feel like a lot of folks misinterpret God now these days in that God's real angry with how things turned out and not really happy with a lot of things happening in the world. And I think there's a lot of things that break god's heart. But at the end of the day, I think, who god is is good, and what god made was good and is still good, good enough for god to want to redeem that, creation.

And so, guys, just starting there in Genesis and that first idea of that concept of a good god making good things. How does that how does that hit you, Molly?

Yeah. I when I think about this, I kinda think about how god created animals and things and said that they were good. But then when god created humans, god said that they were very good.

Very good. Yeah.

Very good. And so not that we are above nature or we are better than nature or better than those around us, but humans were made in the likeness to be very good. And so I sit in that and knowing that sometimes even when I don't feel like I am, god has found me very good. And that's often given me peace and kinda shows me really at the heart of it. God wants us to know that we were created for good works and that we are very good.

And I really appreciate that a lot. What do you think about that, James?

Well, I, one of the most interesting things that I I feel about the the first chapter in in the book of Genesis is, that we often talk about God creating in the past tense. And the word itself is a is a participle. It it talks about the creative force of God. And, you know, it's a constant unfolding. It's not we we always look at it like it happened in the past.

And whether you're a, you know, literal creationist, and it was about 4,500 years ago, or whether you're an evolutionist, and it was now at least 22,000,000,000 years ago, that doesn't matter so much as as the fact that God's creative energy is still being used. The fact that there are new people, there's new, there's new things happening all the time. That's God's creativity. So if nothing else, one of the attributes that I see in that in that first story is that something if I'm gonna attribute it to God, it is that God is creative. That God is wildly creative if you wanna think about it.

I mean, you look at all of everything from you know the what what evolved to be the platypus. But you like. Oh stuck these pieces together. God. You know, it's so kind of weird.

And then, you know, but we have then we have geese or we have, cardinals or, you know, these very beautiful birds that we just like, oh, those, you know, we get why God did that. Platypus, not so much. You know, well, we don't have to get it. God just loves to create. And so I see that I see that God created and God's creativity said about all the things that were made.

This is this is really stinking good. And those human beings, wow. Wow. Very good. Very good.

Right. And and and not just creative, but, like, abundantly creative god. And we have how many species of trees and animals and rocks and elements and just all of it? How many did we need that many stars? Do we need that much universe?

Like, god just, like I don't know. I just feel like there's this diversity and this this large scale grandness, that also speaks to who god is. And I think that that is a beautiful, image, of an abundant and overly creative, a God.

I think we all still I think we also forget that God is an artist and what we have what god has created has now become a masterpiece. And I think, like, each individual thing that god has created works together so that the whole well oiled machine can move forward. And I often think of God as an artist when I'm thinking about how the world was created or how, you know, the grass is green and it's beautiful, and the sky is blue and it's beautiful, and flowers are different colors, and there's things nature is so gorgeous. And I think about the art of all of that. And so to me, I feel like through nature, God has revealed that God is an artist, personally.

And celebrates firstly celebrates diversity, you know, you know, the fact that no two even even though we might look at two chickens and think, oh, they're just two chickens. No two chickens are the same. No two humans are the same. No two molecules are exactly the same. We we get down to the base level of and we think that those are uniform.

There isn't any uniformity. God is just always stirring

up

the stuff and whatever. And it's not just was stirring up the stuff, but is stirring up the stuff. And our God is big enough to be the God of the whole universe, and I think we forget that sometimes and think of God as just for us. What if there's life somewhere else? You don't think God loves the life over, you know, maybe an Alpha Centauri's, little, solar system or somewhere way, way, way far, far, far away, you know, Sirius's, solar system.

I don't think Sirius has it full well, it doesn't matter. God loves it all. Oh. And so oftentimes, we get a little myopic about just us. And it's really easy to understand that because we just have us.

We don't know about what's going on at Sirius.

Not yet.

Not yet. Not yet. But, we don't know what's going on there, but we're pretty sure if if our unless our god's pretty small, that god did it all, is doing, is doing it all. It's still expanding.

Right. Right. It's that yeah. God's still at work. And and I and I love that, thought about God continuously creating that no two things are exactly alike.

And each thing is its own masterpiece. This extravagant masterpiece that that God is doing. Right? There's another example, I wanna get into. But before we begin that, Molly, you mentioned, you know, we look at the grass and it's green unless you're from Kentucky.

Am I right?

So another image I wanna, consider, and this is one that I have found, out of, this old testament text in Deuteronomy chapter one. And it says, the lord your god who goes before you is the one who will fight for you just as he did for you in Egypt before your very eyes in the wilderness where you saw how the lord your god carried you just as one carries a child all the way you traveled until you reach this place. And there is something about that image. I'm a parent, and, I've had two small ones. They're adult children now, but, there are those times where I pick them up and lovingly carry them.

And my one of my favorite memories of them is just them falling asleep while I'm holding them. And here we get this image of of a god who picks us up like a little child and is carrying us protecting us holding us close And I think that that has strong implications for when we think about who god is, that we think about kind of like a almost a parental, loving, a parent that, is holding us and is, keeping us in their arms. I've always appreciated the the the the places that we read about where God is arms are going around us. And I think of, of course, the the wonderful story of the image of God as a father running out to meet his son who squandered everything, embarrassed the family, came back stinking of pig and mud and who knows what else. And we did we don't have this image of a dad who's, you know, standing there tapping his toe, arms crossed, and, you know, has RBF going on.

He's, like, running out, very unceremoniously, to grab and hold his child. And that's just one of my favorite images of god, and I and I think it's so important that we grasp that image and and how does that influence how we, ourselves can accept who we are in light of who God is. And if that is our the kind of God that is trying to have relationship with us, yeah, give me that all day because I can't tell you how many times that I've been that stinking kid who has felt ashamed and needed to run into some arms that love me no matter what. What do you guys think?

Well, of course, and in that story, the fact that a an adult in the story would run is is is in fact a willingness to lose honor, respect in the community. The the fact that the story, if you make God the the father in that story, is willing to be embarrassed in the community because what's most important is not, is not looking good to everybody else, but is getting a hold of that one that felt lost, that was hadn't found their way and was finding their way home. And the most important thing was to let that one know they're right there. They're accepted. They're loved just for the person they already are.

And I don't care about your rehearsed speech. That's a powerful story. I don't care that you've rehearsed this wonderful thing. I'm not worthy to be back home. Forget that stuff.

I don't care. Just come over here and give me a hug because I want you to know I have embraced you for who you are. I do think that stories like that that help remind us. This is why we end up using the idea of gender fluidity the way we understand it today. The reason we use genders related to because all the people we know in the first century, all the people they knew in the first century would have had a gender, at least understood it that way.

You know, we see things differently a long time into the future, but in those days and so if God is gonna be personal, not just somewhere over there, but personal in my life, wanna be able to talk to that god. I want to know that god, and I don't refer to Molly or Sean, either one of you by some generic random word. I would refer to you as Molly or Sean, and then whatever pronouns you prefer, but the bottom line is it's it's personal. And that's we we attribute those kinds of personal connections to God because we want someone who embraces us, who holds us, who holds us up, who is the strong one, who is unafraid, to grab us up and care for us. What about you, Molly?

Absolutely. I think that makes me think of Matthew chap or Matthew chapter 18 when it talks about if a man has a hundred sheep and one of them wanders away, what will he do? Won't he leave the 99 others on the hill and go search for the one that's lost? I think we often forget that sometimes we are the one that's lost and god is searching for us and god is never leaving us but is searching for us and wants us to come back to who God is. And I think that reveals a lot about who God is, that God would leave 99 for the one.

I think that's such a powerful image if we think about the 99 versus the one. And that we're often the one that God is searching after. I think that's incredible.

And so there's another descriptor for God, and that God is reckless, which is so interesting to think of, a God that is in charge of the order and the chaos is a bit reckless. And we can tear apart a lot of these stories, that reveal who god is. And that being a primary one that you just mentioned, what shepherd would leave 99 sheep and not just take the loss of the one Mhmm. And move on? Why put the others at risk just to go look for the wayward one?

And I think that's another point in observation that we need to wrap our minds around. I think young adults need to wrap their minds around. This is the kind of God, that stops everything and gets on their knees and looks for a lost coin, like a little lost coin, and then rejoices when they found it. And this is a god that seeks after us, that, knocks at the door of our hearts, and is gentle and is compassionate, and weeps for us, and longs to have relationship. I think these are so helpful because when we consider the people that are right around us, when we're walking on campus, going to our next class, how are we viewing these people?

Or the people that we hear who, are politically on the other spectrum than we are and how can we embrace them and love them? In the same way that God loves us. As God love that wayward, rebellious son, and and I think we have a lot to to think about, when we consider that this is the kind of God that we that is trying to have relationship with us. Abundance, beautiful, masterpieces, reckless. I think it's all there, and it's and it's paints a really interesting view of of God.

I think it's really important to consider. Do you guys have some examples that you wanted to share of of of where you saw a, a redeeming quality of of God that we need to consider?

Fundamentally, I believe that if you read between the lines from the beginning to the end of sacred texts, like for us, the Hebrew bible and the Christian bible, when we read through them between every line, I read a sense of a God who loves. Not only has love as an attribute, but is love itself. You know, I often think of, first Corinthians 13, particularly the section that's most I I I love the whole thing. The whole chapter is great. You know, don't get so caught up in any other gifts that you forget about love because any of the other gifts without love is just empty, pointless, no good, worthless.

But when you start talking about love is patient, love is kind, I believe you could just as easily take the word love out and drop God in. God is patient. God is kind. God isn't jealous. God doesn't demand God's own way.

God isn't, arrogant. God isn't, rude. God doesn't keep a list of offenses. God isn't irritable. You know, God bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

God never fails. And I do believe that love is that peace. And if we know that God never fails, love never fails, then, you know, what else needs to hold us in the universe? That the love of god will not fail us or anyone else in whatever way god's work is about that. I just think it's very powerful to think of love as and love a love that is unconditional.

Not a love that loves you because you are successful or charming or handsome, you know, like all the three of us are. But, you know, in addition, you know, God loves us even when we're not so pretty. When, and sometimes it's in the failure itself that we really learn who we are and whose we are. Because just like that prodigal son who squandered everything, there is always a place at the table at home for us, and God is always beckoning us and inviting us home, if we'll just come.

Right. And I think that the last thing that we should probably bring up about the nature and character of God is that God is a God that believes or desires justice. Absolutely. And, and I think this is another term that kinda gets muddied a little bit. What kind of justice are we talking about?

What kind of justice is God really for? And we hear of a reckoning, right, that evil is going to be punished, and good is going to be rewarded. And yet there's a lot of injustice in our world that, according to what we see revealed about God is, God cares very much about the injustice in the world and wants us to participate with what god is doing in the world to confront that injustice. And then there is real evil. And so how do we balance, an angry god who's holding the people like a spider over the fire, Jonathan Edwards, sinners in the hands of an angry god.

How how how do we balance this god out who I mean, is he angry, and is he mad at what's going on, Or is he a god of just infinite love and just wants, you know, everyone to get along? And I and I feel like there there is a balance here to be had. And what do you guys think? What what comes to mind?

I think that we can hold both. We can hold that there can be anger, and we can also hold that there can be love. And I think just as any if god has created all of us in the way that god has, then we can also in ourselves hold that anger and hold that love in the same way that god can. James, what were you gonna say?

I was only gonna say that, you know, part of the problem is we have latched on as, people because we're all about tit for tat, working everything out in balance. And I do think we've we've hung on to retributive justice. The kind of justice that you eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth.

Mhmm.

And if I see anything in the, you know, in the in the Christian in in what we would call the New Testament, it's not an eye for an eye, it's not a tooth for a tooth. It's restorative if you read the prophets in the Hebrew Bible, it's not retributive justice, it's restorative justice. God wants to restore us to full relationship. The idea of retribution is always what we're looking for. And that's, I think, that's mostly us putting something on God that's not about who God is.

Wants to invite us back into relationship. And I'm not sure we're limited. I'm gonna cross a line here. I'm not sure we're limited by this lifespan that we have. Because it does seem a little bit to to the God of twenty two billion years expecting us to figure it all out in the seventy years we're allotted, which by the way, a lot of people don't make it to.

Some people make it way beyond, some people don't get into that. What if you die when you're two? When did you ever get a chance to really make any decision about God? And does God have special dispensation for those people? I mean, we've always tried to explain away things like that.

Maybe God restores us all all of us somewhere down the road.

I think that the our understanding of of God's justice in the world, again, it's it influences how we treat other people. Absolutely. We view people, in a in a certain light that they're evil and that they're bad, and those are the bad guys, then then how could God possibly love them? And I think we've got to reclaim that the fact that god made all of us. We're all made in god's image, not not just the folks who live in the Western Hemisphere, or who claim that they're Americans, but that god has made all of us and that this, retribution, this this sense of justice pits us against, other people.

And, so, James, talk to us a little bit more about that that that sense of justice that you were just mentioning.

Well, I do think that somehow on the long that the long if I'm to believe you know, I think Martin Luther King Junior said it the best, when he said, you know, the arc of justice is long. The arc of time or the universe is long and it bends towards justice. And I think the kind of justice God wants is a kind of justice that doesn't make me want to draw lines between me and anybody else. I mean, right now, there's a lot of defining who's right and who's wrong in our world. And, you know, as I am reminded regularly, one person's freedom fighter is another person's terrorist.

You know, and, not you know, that's and it just depends on which side you find yourself. So, how do we get to a place where God can if do we believe God's powerful enough? If God's not omnipotent enough to redeem everything, then it doesn't seem like God's omnipotent at all.

Right. And this is a this is a tough one, which, of course, we're not going to solve in this one podcast. Right? But it it it's a it's a difficult subject, our view of of of God's justice in the world, in the face of real evil. There are bad players out there and, doesn't seem like, they're considering the fact that all of us were made in God's image, and the way we treat each other matters.

But, again, for our sakes, I think it's important that, how we think about God definitely influences our own behaviors and our own personal decisions and choices that we make. And it's important that, we we we put that into context, in our everyday lives. And so in closing, I think to to repeat this this great quote from, again, Brian Erickson, our ideas about God, how we think about God, and what we think about God shapes every other relationship in our lives. Our hope is that, we've given you guys enough, food for thought, to consider how you think about, God and how that influences the choices that you have to make. Right?

The people that, you surround yourself with, how you treat the person at the grocery store, or the homeless in your city, or the the downtrodden, just everyone and anyone around you or the political decisions that you have to make. How are those shaped and informed by what you believe who God is? And we wanna hear from you. And in just a second, Molly is going to share with us again, how you can get in touch with us. We would love to hear your thoughts, and, and get your feedback.

And are there any closing thoughts that either one of you may have before Molly gives us, how we can reach out to us. James, you got anything?

The last thing I would say is, you know, we talked about boxes at the beginning of this. Every one of us, even, whether we admit it to ourselves or not, have boxes that we fit God into. Be open enough to know that sometimes something's gonna break your box. And and then you're gonna have to reorient what you think. I I think that the only way we can envision visualize God in our, in our world as finite beings, as limited beings, is we need to figure out, okay, these things I'm comfortable saying about God.

I've got this box. And then suddenly we realize, wait, God's got some of the attributes that's outside this box. Box blows open. Then you have to reorient yourself, and what you end up doing is you make a new box that somehow bigger and different than the other box was before. And then you think you've got it and then, you know, so if you have a box for God already, that's, that's not bad.

I think it's a developmental reality for all of us. We can only hold so much information, and that's how much we got right now. And then just leave yourself open enough to sometimes something's gonna come along, doesn't fit your box, gonna get bigger. That would be my last word.

And Jesus did that a whole lot, didn't he? He's like, well, you heard it said before, but now I say and so yeah. I love that idea. Yeah. Be flexible.

Don't be so rigid and feel like you got to have all the answers. God is so much bigger than that. And I think when we approach God with a sense of humility, we don't have all the answers. We're we're still, experiencing this for ourselves, and there's still so much to learn. I think that is more helpful than it is to try to feel like you've got all the answers or you've got it kinda squared away.

I think I think there's room for growth for all of us, and particularly this understanding of who God is. Alright, Molly. What you got?

Absolutely. I think one of the last closing thoughts that I'll say is that God is love, and where there's love, there's God. And be reminded of that. And if we keep searching for love, we'll keep searching for god. If y'all would like to find us on Instagram, you can find us at spiritual dot not underscore religious podcast.

And then if you want to send us an email, it's spiritualnotreligiouspodcast@Gmail.com, and we can't wait to hear from you.

Alright. Hey, guys. Thank you so much for joining us, and we hope that you share, this podcast with others whether you agree with it or not. And, we hope to hear from you. We'd love to get your feedback.

But we do appreciate you joining us and, making us a part of your day. We'll continue to keep pouring out, more podcasts. We've got several more ideas We would love to have some of your ideas and so send those in and we would be happy to discuss those and because there is a lot to talk about and we're excited about it. Again, thank you for, inviting us into a little bit of your day, and we can't wait to, be a part of your day here in the future. God bless and

take care.