Spiritual, Not Religious

Hey, y'all. Welcome to Spiritual Not Religious. This is a podcast for young adults that explores the

intricacies of God's kingdom and the modern world.

Welcome back to another episode of Spiritual Not Religious with your hosts, our resident pontiff and theological guru, James Henry, the voice of reason, and the true genius behind this podcast, Molly June Miller, and yours truly, Sean Windmer. Now if you're one of the many out traversing the wilderness of faith and doubt, feeling spiritual, not religious, then pull up a little desert floor and sit with us in our oasis of conversation as we delve into all kinds of topics relating to young adults and really, honestly, everyone, right, who feel that deep calling to deep feeling inside their soul, but struggle to make sense of that feeling with what they see in the world. Now, today, we're gonna take a look at the subject of hearing God's voice, in a culture that is made up of so many competing voices and noise, and we're gonna ask questions like, How can we hear that voice? And is it even possible? What does God want to say to me?

And what does God want me to do with my life? Now, look, young adults are in a place of trying to figure out all kinds of directions for their lives and are faced with several decisions to make in a short amount of time. Now, what guides those decisions? Where does discernment come from? What role does faith play in those decisions?

And wouldn't it be great if we could lean into hearing God speak to us and leading us along our way like God seemed to do for so many back in the day? Now we've got a lot to talk about in this podcast, and we'll be expecting to hear from you and get your thoughts as well. So let's get right into it. How are we doing, friends?

Hello, friends. This is Molly June Miller, and I am doing pretty well today. I recently just got a cat who I love. His name is Taco, and he's really cute. And so that's some exactly.

That's some, divinity that I'm seeing in my life. So I'm excited about that. What about you, James?

I'm actually doing really well too. I guess the most intriguing recent thing that I've been doing is I have been, doing some self teaching in Aramaic, the language of Jesus, so that I can more fully understand what he might have been saying and understand a little bit more about maybe the culture in which he, he was raised. So I'm excited by that. In fact, it's very energizing. I've been practicing writing the alphabet.

I feel like a an Aramaic kindergartner. So I'm filled with kindergarten energy today despite my age.

I love that.

That is awesome. So, like, really, that fits in perfectly to what we're talking about. So you're literally trying to hear what Jesus was saying, the very words that he was speaking in Aramaic. That

is the the language of Jesus. That's his language.

Come on. I love that. We'll talk about hearing God's voice in our lives. I think a lot of us wanna want that to happen, but for most of us, right, it seems a bit like trying to catch our shadow. I mean, we can easily swing the pendulum from wanting to hear something from god to really a lot of doubt and uncertainty.

Like, is really god speaking? Is that really happening? And is it a bit too mystical to think that god wants to chat with little old us? I mean, doesn't god have more important things to do and more important folks to talk to? So in addition to all of that, I've always heard the saying that when we talk to god, it's called praying.

But when we hear god talking back, it's called schizophrenia. And how about all of the folks who claim to hear God's voice and then end up turning into some wackos. Right? Or they're leading others to do some pretty stupid or harmful things. And so we're we're we can go all over the board with this, and we can go in a lot of directions.

But I think for most of us that, claim to be spiritual, that involves a belief that God desires to be involved in our lives to some degree. So I wanna keep us in that lane of conversation. And so let's begin with with asking the question, does god even want me to hear god's voice? So I I grew up going to church pretty regularly. There wasn't a time where I can remember in my life that I wasn't going to church.

I just grew up thinking, well, this is what everyone does. And, you know, anytime the doors are open, boom, we were there, as early as I can remember. And I I heard and was taught all of the biblical accounts, particularly of god talking to all sorts of folks. And I thought that was really cool. And I remember desperately, praying as this little boy, at night before going to bed that, I would see God or at least hear God's booming voice because apparently, that's how God talked back in the day.

Really loud, really dramatic, that he was gonna talk to me in my little bedroom, bunk bed, his booming voice talking to me at night telling me something, anything. And I would just pray so earnestly, like, okay, God, please let me just see a glimpse. Let me just see, like, a little bit of a light or let me just hear something. It didn't have to be much. Just, just anything.

And, of course, didn't ever quite happen, but I wanted that audible voice speaking to me so bad, just like I learned about in church. It's like, why could they hear it? And what about me? I mean, isn't god still kinda doing stuff like that today? So that was kinda like a little bit of, experience that I had growing up.

What about you, Molly?

Yeah. What I hear in that is a similar experience to the way that I grew up. I went to church as a young child. I actually grew up in the Catholic church for a while, and then I ended up switching over to the Methodist Church and have now been confirmed in Methodist Church and have been with that for a while. But I think for me, it was a little bit different.

I think I really heard God's voice in other people. So not specifically, you know, wanting God to talk to me, but wanting other people's hearts to align with where I was going also. And so when someone would say to me, hey. Like, you should go on this mission trip or you should, come to this church event, it kind of made me feel like, okay. God is nudging me in this direction or God is nudging me in that direction based on what other people had been saying to me, which I think is good and bad.

Because when you're a kid, sometimes people will say things and you feel like, oh, whatever they're saying is, you know, what God wants for me. But maybe it's not. And I didn't know how to discern that as well as a child. And I think now I can discern that a lot better.

Absolutely. How about you, James?

For me yeah. For me, I've, music has really spoken to me in my life. It's it's it's interesting to me. I can point to some times in my life. My first sense of calling to.

Ministry and I believe we're all called it's not just whether or not you're called into ordained ministry or not. When I first felt my call to ordained ministry, let me put it that way. I was, I was in high school. I was in worship. We were singing hymns, And, the hymn, I can I, I can remember, it it was like a hymn prayer?

Have thine own way, Lord. Have thine own way. Hold over my being, absolute sway. You know, mold me and make me after your will as I am waiting yielded and still. But that prayer kinda pulled me out and made me come forward to the you know I don't know if many of you been in traditional churches often had a kneeling rail upfront and I went up to the kneeling rail and I had a conversation and began sort of an exploration of what it was and you know a long time later, hey, this is the gig I'm doing.

So I felt like I heard God echoed in, in music, you know, and then as we move beyond hymns to more praise songs, I heard God echoed in praise songs, but I also hear it in in a lot of secular music. I, on my way to, for my elders retreat. Before I could become an elder, you go and defend all these papers that you've written about, all the things the church believes. And on my way, I was listening to a CD. That's a little disc, by the way, that spins.

You put it into a device and it plays music or it can play just plain words. But just in case you didn't know, not to be facetious there. Sorry. But I was listening to an an album by John Berry. And, the first song on that album is, he he's, you know, he's taken a shine, you know, and he fall it's about a story about, you know, this woman no one ever notices.

This guy takes a shine to her. She takes a shine to him, and then suddenly she lights up. And it seemed like to me that's a theological song, You know, when we get that connection with God. And so it changed my whole theology while I was driving 3 hours to get to this place in my car listening to this CD play over and over and over again. It, you know, so music is the way that I've kind of heard god subtly speak into my life.

What are you saying in this song? And, you know, how does it apply? So, no. The clouds have not parted in magical James, I have this for you. No golden scroll or even silver ones.

Quite frankly, I'd take a bronze or a copper one handed down from the clouds. But, music has been the way that I've often heard and felt, the experience of of hearing God, if you will.

Right. And what I appreciate, James, is all of the things that you bring to this podcast, including educating us on what a CD is and, language, like, there had to shine on. And so I think that is something we need to bring back, right, for all of our young adults. So so start using that whenever you're, like, dating someone. Just tell your friends that you gotta shine on.

So just saying. I think that was really, really good.

I'll use that one. I'll let you know how it goes.

Yeah. I think Baker may not appreciate that very much, but you could be surprised.

Absolutely. So we're just dispensing all kinds of really great stuff on this podcast. You're welcome. It's for free, but I think you guys both bring up interesting points. Our experiences with this growing up maybe are all gonna be a little different.

Ollie grew up in more of a Catholic tradition. And so that might've been understood in a little bit of a different way of hearing God's voice. And, mine was probably a little more Pentecostal, growing up. And then we swung over to, a more of a reformed kind of of of of faith, and that was completely different way of of believing how we can hear from God. And, James, the same with you.

So, we all kinda have our different experiences, which I think it's important to think about those experiences and how we were formed early on into hearing God's voice or our expectations around that, I think help inform how we, you know, move forward today. But regardless of of of how we started off with all of that, I think there is a deep yearning for us to wanna hear that voice. There's there's I mentioned it earlier that deep calling to deep kind of feeling and just wanting to know and believing that god wants us to know. But we we live in a culture of a lot of competing voices, and I kinda wanna talk a little bit about that. So how how do we, try to hear or get close to this, notion of the god is wanting to to talk to us, but how how do we get to that place when there's so many other voices, competing for our attention?

What do you what do you guys think?

Well, I think the biblical witness certainly points to God's yearning for a relationship with us.

Mhmm.

And we naturally think of when I think of relationship I think of conversations. I think of the conversations that shaped my, my relationship with my wife. The conversations I still have with her and both of my adult children. And how those conversations, lead us to a place. And yet, you know I think you alluded to this in the very, very beginning, Sean when you said you know we got that prayer thing where we talk to God.

Mhmm.

But how do we you know, on the other side of that, when somebody claims to have heard God, sometimes the people who claim to have heard God seem like they're trying to, you know, sell that experience for cash. And then that doesn't seem like real true. But if it's a conversation, how how are we communicating? How are we in a communication? And one of the things I think happens in a in a deep, commune deep relationship is you sometimes you sit in silence and you just gaze into each other's eyes.

And, that gazing, that mutual appreciation of one another. So I find, that, you know, maybe a converse not to cop out, I have some other things to say about hearing the voice of God, but, I do think sometimes it is simply gazing, into the magnificence of, of sacred texts but also into nature itself. Even the earliest followers of Jesus and beyond, the earliest church before it really became church, saw nature as as the first bible, as the first gospel, as the first way of communicating, and saw in the patterns of the seasons and the, you know, the rain and the lack of it, all of those things, kind of a message from you know, it's like if you go and see a painter like a van you know, you go to see Van Gogh, you get a sense of Van Gogh's own, brilliance, tortured soul, all of that in the way the canvas is is painted. We get a sense of who the creator is behind all the beauty of this nature dance. So my conversations often happen in walks in nature too.

So, I mean, that's a that's a thought for what a conversation might look like. It's it is a back and forth relational kind of thing, but I I'm wishing for an audible voice, but not so much.

I James, I love that you said just sitting in silence. I think growing up in the Catholic tradition, I thought that silence was the absence of where god was. And so we were called to be really quiet and sit and not say anything. And people who know me know that I'm all over the place all the time. I have ADHD.

Like, I'm a crazy person. And so being called to sit and my parents saying, like, you have to sit. You have to stand up when they tell you to. You have to sit down when they tell you to. And it was very silent, and I didn't hear anything.

And I felt like, okay, this is not speaking to me because I'm not hearing anything. I'm not I'm not getting anything from what they're saying when the priest talks. I don't hear anything. I'm just in silence. But I think that there's so much truth to that of even being in that silence and in those moments not thinking I was receiving anything.

I think that was starting the foundation of what eventually the silence broke.

Mhmm.

I started to really hear who god was through that. But I think you're right when you say we have to sit and just kind of admire each other. And I think it took me a while to admire who god was and for me to receive that god was admiring me back. And now I'm able to hear God in so many different ways and be able to really listen to God's call for so many parts of my life that I probably wouldn't have if I didn't sit in that silence originally. So I really appreciate you adding that.

Thank you for that.

Mhmm.

Yeah. And I think healthy relationships involve really good communication, and good communication involves both the talking part and the listening part. And I think that's kinda maybe where a lot of the breakdown might occur for when we're trying to listen when it's really hard to listen, perhaps either because we have a lot to say and we need to do all the talking, or it's just really a struggle to have to hear what someone else is saying. I mean, how many great listeners are out there? But, I think listening is tough, because, there are a lot of competing voices out there to listen to.

And if if God isn't loud enough, God gets drowned out, I I suppose. And there's a myriad of podcasts out there. There's plenty of other folks and things to listen to besides, God's voice, but taking the time out to do all of that. I used to, teach a confirmation, class, at a retreat in Lake Tunalesca, North Carolina. And, it was, I think, entitled it does God text.

And it was just all about how God tries to communicate with us. Right. And just out of curiosity, do you know that God did text? Like he had a cell phone? Do you, do you remember what his first text was?

Anyone?

What was his first time?

Yeah. I'm clearly not the religious scholar I once thought I was, Sean.

Well, it it was the Ten Commandments, but the call got dropped.

Pretty rough.

Pretty rough. Oh,

that's what we tend to call dad jokes. Dad jokes.

But I I come by that honestly. You know, father of 2 grown children, it's like, it's my turn. You know? I I get a shot at this. Although I'm not very good at it.

I need to go to, like, dad jokes school or something. We could start that outside podcast. Don't don't look at it as bad. Alright. Leave it anyway.

But, I mean, it's like so these these competing voices. Right? But I I I honestly believe that God wants to be heard. And we're getting at that question, but how? Right?

And both of you have brilliantly come up with my next topic, which was, you know, finding God in the silence. Right? And, there's a just a beautiful story of how one of the early prophets, was just really going through a time and, dreading and fearing for his life. And god said, hey.

A lot

Go up to the mountain.

About Elijah, brother. I can hear that.

Come on. Come on. And he's like, he's heading up to the mountains. Right? Which I think being out in nature speaks a lot of us, but we can talk about that later.

And god kinda comes through in a couple of different ways. Right? And so here's here's his prophet, and he's just hanging out there. And suddenly there is like a fire, a huge fire. But we we find out that God's not in that.

And then there's this earthquake and it's shaking everything, but we find out that God's not in that. And then there's this mighty wind that blows through and it's knocking down trees, with tornado strength. And we find out that God's not a part of that. And then suddenly there's just silence. And that is where God is found.

And I wanna lean into this a little bit because I that's a hard thing to hear is silence. I know way too many people and myself included that silence is really tough. And for some, silence is overwhelmingly loud and uncomfortable in a lot of ways. So let's, like, talk to me a little bit about how do we find God in something like silence, and and how does helping to quiet down our lives a little bit help us to hear God's, voice in our lives? I mean, how how do we do this?

I mean, silence is tough, guys.

Absolutely. I think being a young adult, one thing that I know is really hard is social media because social media is something we're constantly ingesting. Like, we're taking it in. We're taking it in, and there's no silence there. And so, like, if we don't wanna sit in silence, instead, we can have social media and listen to what other people are saying and hear about the politics of the world or where we are or what we're doing.

And so we're constantly able to take in so much what we think we are. But really, we do need to sit in silence. And that was something that was so hard for me to do because I love to talk. I love to be in relationship with people. And for a long time, I didn't like to be in silence or just to be with myself.

I didn't like sitting in that what felt like loneliness. And I moved slowly towards when I started living by myself and I started moving into the next part of my life, I made sure that I carved out time in my day and in my week and in my month and in my year where I was silent and where I that I wasn't sleeping in silence, because sleeping in silence is different. But just sitting in silence and listening to nothing and hearing nothing, and it's beautiful. Sometimes I put on my noise canceling headphones, and I just walk around my house, and I hear nothing. Sometimes when I drive, I put on noise canceling headphones and listen to nothing and hear nothing.

And it's beautiful, but then out of that silence comes so many things that fill me that I didn't even know could fill me. So I encourage you to sit in that silence, and it's really uncomfortable, and it's really hard, and it feels weird, and it feels wrong. It feels like you shouldn't be doing it because so many people don't. But I think often as people set apart in the world, that's what we're called to is to do things that other people aren't doing. So try to sit in your silence and see how that feels.

Give it 1 minute, 2 minutes, 3 minutes, and then slowly, you'll be able to sit in it longer and longer.

I've come to believe that silence is god's first language. Long you know, if you start in Genesis 1, before there is I don't know how the word spoke. The vibrational energy of god saying light or whatever it was, you know, because that's really what sound is anyway. It's a vibration. And it's a subtle vibration and, you know, maybe we're defining voice the wrong way.

We think voice comes in a vibration in English if we speak English or, you know, Aramaic if we speak Aramaic or whatever Spanish, French, Italian, but maybe that vibration comes, differently. But before God spoke, there wasn't sound. There was nothing. Before there was the beginning, However, that looked, I always think of it as, like, 22,000,000,000 years ago, but the big bang got god's energetic presence and vibration is what caused that singularity to that's how I look at it. But, so god's first language was, in my mind, silence until god broke that silence and said, let there be, let there be light.

And so silence, silence is there. There and there's one church at least, that was founded on the idea of silence, waiting to hear God's you know, when you think of Quakers, the Society of Friends, their whole worship style is to sit together in silence until someone feels the vibrational energy of spirit speak to them and then they share something. But if nobody feels any vibrational energy, they sit together in silence for a long time until it ends. And there is a discomfort in silence. I've developed, it took me a long time.

I'm an extrovert, so chatty chatty chatty works for me. But, practicing silence for the last, you know, 12 years in my meditative 13 years in my meditative practice has, sort of reshaped my experience of silence. It's hard work, though. If if anyone tells you that silence is easy, just stop talking. It's gonna be great.

They're lying to you. They're lying to you.

Right. Right. And how many people fall asleep during this time too. Right? Like, which, you know, maybe that's what you need is to rest, which is great.

But there is an interesting, pattern going on with the sitting in silence, which, I find so intriguing because in order to hear, we have to be quiet, or find ourselves in spaces where, all of these competing voices aren't trying to take away that time for us to actually hear what god is saying to us. And for our friends who are just like, I can't sit and do nothing. I've got to be moving. I've got to be doing something, if I'm gonna sit around and just try to listen. And for those folks, I encourage, some some journaling.

Sit there, turn everything else off, but grab a pen, grab some paper, and sit and listen. And what and what is it that you hear? Write it down. Well, it was one of the spiritual disciplines I learned in divinity school was listening to what god is saying. No matter what bubbles up, just write it down and start to have a little bit of a conversation right back, to what you're hearing.

I think that's helpful. Or maybe it is that you are taking a walk in silence, and you're listening, but you're walking. You're moving. And so there's a couple of different ways, that this can occur, but I think there is something to be said of of listening to god in a quiet place with not all of the competing voices. And I think it's necessary and definitely something to to at least look into, and lean into as we try to quiet our minds and our hearts and our lives to hear what god is saying.

Now could god come around in a twirl of fire or wind and start, you know, saying all kinds of stuff out of that? Sure. God could do that. I mean, I don't know if there's anything that god can't do. But, I think for the way god has chosen to talk to us, I think we look at the example of Christ who withdrew many times from everybody and everything to just get in a quiet spot.

And so getting into a quiet place, I think, is a a first step into hearing that voice, of god. So we're gonna take a break real quick and come back and talk a little bit more about some other practices that we can consider on how to better hear the voice of god. I think it's also important because a lot of us have questions, and we want direction. We crave it. And, and I think god wants to speak to us, first and foremost.

And so how do we get both of those on the same page? We're gonna talk a little bit more about that when we come right back. And welcome back to our second half of the podcast where we are talking about hearing god's voice in our lives and the impact that that has for, our decisions and for the things that we have going on. And as, we're talking to primarily young adults, who are full of a lot of questions, a lot of decisions that need to be made. How does god influence those decisions, And how do we know that god is speaking to us?

And, how is god moving in such a way where we feel like we're walking alongside and in sync with god's voice. And in my time in divinity school, we learned about a concept called divine congruence and divine dissonance, and I'll explain that. So divine congruence is that place in our lives where our gifts and our talents intersect the deep needs of the world. And we have that moment where our hearts are strangely warmed, John Wesley, where we feel our souls come alive, and we respond to what god is doing in us. And that's kind of the general feeling that I'm I'm trying to describe.

I was talking to my amazing wife about this idea, and she gave me an incredible example to illustrate this concept. And she grew up surfing down in Florida a lot. And she said that divine congruence was like feeling like the feeling in the moment where, she was paddling to catch a wave and that matched the speed of the way perfectly and she could get onto the board and ride that wave. And so it's this perfect unity of the force and shape of the wave carrying her board and her intentions with the surfboard, and it's all mixed in with the feelings of joy and excitement that she was having with that ride. Right?

And so that's kind of what we're talking about with divine congruence. Divine dissonance, of course, is that feeling where you just feel out of sync. Something's not quite right. And, maybe you just can't quite put all the pieces together and there's disillusionment, and you feel a little bit lost. And you're actually trying to fight against things instead of partnering with, to make you have that feeling of, okay.

I feel like my life is lining up. This is this is what I feel like I should be about. Right? And so just talking about that, friends, what do you guys think about the this idea of how your your heart and your life kind of aligns with what you feel like god is trying to to say to you or trying to lead your life into? What do you guys think?

James?

Well, the interesting thing is the image that appeared to me when you were talking about surfing and the whole thing is, it's like if you're at the beach and you're going to the ocean, you get caught in a riptide. The, you know, what swimming against is just going to tire you out. Trying to swim back to the shore is going to tire you out and wear you out. And they say just ride with the riptide until it lets you go and then swim Right. Swim parallel to the shore until you're out of the tide and then swim back in.

And it feels like to me that's exactly what you were talking about with that dissonance and resonance. We can fight against what we can clearly fill that pull on us. But, of course, some of us don't always aren't feeling the pull, aren't realizing we're being swept, away by it. And it could be the cacophony of voices in the, world in which we live. There are so many people.

If you don't get a sense of what you're meant to do in the world, the world will certainly tell you what it thinks you should do. And so hearing when I think of the word voice, when you were talking about resonance, I was thinking about the word vocation, finding that place in our lives where we fit into the voice because, the Latin root of vocation, vocari is to listen to hear, Vox is voice. So, you know, when we're in sync, when we're doing that resonant thing you were talking about, Sean, we are actually following our vocation, which is the voice that rings true deep within, and that is the voice of God, though it's not what we think of as an audible voice, like when we can hear someone speak to us. It's it's an it's more of a, an echo, deep within. That's what I hear, about what you were saying.

What about you, Molly? What do you think?

I love everything that you just said. Like, it makes me ponder so much. I love it. I think for me in that, the idea that, you know, I've always known about vocation through James. Actually, he helped me understand that when I was a fellow with ASP for that year.

And I think vocation is something that can change over time. So if we decide or we feel right now that being a campus minister is the best thing for me right now. But then in 5 years, you're you wanna be a pastor or you wanna go work at McDonald's and that's where you feel called to be and you think that that is where God is calling you to be, then that can change. And I think we sometimes get stuck on it has to be this one thing forever, and that God's gonna tell us once and that's gonna be it. And I think that that's what society wants us to do sometimes is that it's gonna be that one thing forever, but changing it is beautiful.

And God changes us in what we do. And as we continue to grow, we're going to find our vocation in different places, and that's okay to hear the voice saying one thing and then saying something different later. I want you to know that because sometimes people really struggle with that.

Oh, no. And they do. And it and it happens in every age group. Right? Amanda, we're talking primarily to young adults, 18 to 30 year olds plus.

But, I mean, it's all of us. Right? And, god is constant speaking. There's no doubt about that. But how how can we hear what god has to say at each point in our lives?

It's also interesting to me that we we might hear god in one time in our life and like, oh, yeah, that really worked out well. But suddenly, we're in another point of our life and we forget, oh, we need to get back to listening to that voice, because it works so well the first time. And sometimes we just sort of get lost in whatever else is happening in our life and forget that, you know, god is god is still trying to speak into these next decisions and these next choices that we have to make. And so let's let's talk a little bit about some of the practices that we can share that, will help to enable all of us to hear God a little bit better. What what are some things that have worked really well for you?

Because we know that god speaks in all kinds of ways. And just in the biblical account alone, we find god speaking through a donkey, through angels, through prophets, through dreams and visions, the holy spirit, or that still small voice. Sometimes people call that a conscience. God has spoken audibly, and god has spoken through others, through miracles, all kinds of ways. Right?

So, what are some things that kind of, surface for you guys when you think of practices in which we can share that help us to hear God a little bit better? What do you guys think?

I have 2 that I would be glad to just throw out that I find helpful in my own life. One is my meditative practice. And, you know, there are different. We could have a whole session on what meditation looks like because there are lots of different approaches to meditation. But ultimately, the goal of meditation is, you know, we have these thoughts that arise from us.

Scientists are still trying to figure out where thoughts come from. I always can was convinced my brain was thinking them, but they seem to come they they can't actually align based on testing where thoughts come from. They just seem to arise. But we have all these thoughts coming up. Sometimes we decide we're good or bad based on what thoughts arise, but they seem to be random.

And learning to recognize thoughts and let them go that we don't have to chase every thought because some of those thoughts are not they're not edifying, they're not helpful, and they take us off of tangent. So part of the med you know, meditative practice, whether it is an active or a passive meditative practice, either one of those allows you to just recognize, oh, you begin to develop, you know, an internal watcher who sees the thoughts rising and realizes I don't have to chase that thought. You can name that thought and let it go. Just let it go. Let it go.

And then the practice of letting it go lets you be more aware of what's happening now. This is just my thought coming up, but what is that sort of inkling? What is that vibrational feel I've got going on inside that's not a thought? Maybe that's God speaking. And meditation just helps us learn the process of discernment.

This is just another thought that's rising right now. This is just another feeling I've got going on. I am not my thoughts. I am not my feelings. I have those, but I'm not those.

So that would be the first practice is developing a meditative practice. You can begin at any length. I use centering prayer as a practice, sort of a modified centering prayer, which is 20 minutes twice a day. But, you know, my wife, she started and feels comfortable at 5 minutes a day and feels very good about that. The other one would be what I call like to call sex, sacred reading.

You can call it Lexio Divina if you want to. That's the Latin word that just means sacred reading or divine reading. But it is approaching a sacred text. Often, it's a biblical text for Christians, but it can be other texts. And you read short passages of it, and you listen for the echo of spirit in it.

You listen for what that one word, image, or phrase might be speaking into your life right now. But you have to practice enough quiet. And when it hits you right, I always feel like it hits me right here. It's not that I'm intrigued intellectually by it as much as my heartstring just says, oh my gosh, that's true. Right now in this moment.

Now 5 minutes from now, I can read the same passage and something else may ring true in the passage because my life is changing every moment. So those are two practices I find useful. At some point in the future, we could talk about it at greater length. I know that on my own personal podcast, sometimes Infinitely Precious podcast, that I sometimes talk specifically about just those focus kinds of practices. And there are lots of really good teachers out there who talk about those things, but those are two ways, I think, for me, that work in terms of hearing the echo of this eternal voice, whatever that, may mean.

What about you, Molly?

Yeah. I I love those. I would say for me, 2 places that I feel like I can really hear the voice of the divine or sometimes just silence is in yoga and then in nature. So I really enjoy doing yoga. I do it at least once a week, and I sometimes do it at home, and then sometimes I do it with an actual, like, yoga trainer.

And that's a really cool opportunity to just move through those motions and, like, feel your body and feel what's like, feel your body moving and listening, but you're also still almost like nothing is going on in your head. And I love that because I think after yoga is when I can really find that stillness and that rest, and I can really hear what the divine is saying to me. And then another place is in nature. I love going out in nature, going for walks, hiking. Just being in nature of any kind is something that's really important to me because it roots me back into reminding me of God created me, God created this, and how beautiful is this that God created me to be a part of this nature and this opportunity for this time that I'm here.

So I think those are two things that I've taken and used, but in different seasons of my life, they've looked different. And a couple years ago, I definitely wouldn't have told you that yoga was something that I really enjoyed, but now I really do. So it's gonna move and it's gonna change, and it's gonna help you find what you need based on, you know, where the intersection of your world is right now.

Absolutely. And I think with all of these practices that we're gonna be talking about, the the key phrase is you gotta be intentional. You have to be intentional to want to look and expect to hear god's voice speaking to you. I know some folks who get up and they start their day with, okay, god. Speak to me in such a way that I can hear you.

And I think that's a really important first step is to, look for be intentional looking for what god is saying to you in each of your encounters and the movements that you have, the rhythms that you fall into in your day, whether that's you're walking from one class to the other on a college campus, who are the people that you meet encounter, What might you see? And what do you how are you listening to God speaking to you in that moment? What God might be saying to you? And I and I think for a lot of folks, experiencing God through nature is a huge, huge piece, because we see what God has made and God's handiwork is in that and there's a way to connect very tangibly to that. I think music is a huge piece for a lot of folks, whether that's you're listening to, worship songs or any kind of secular music that connects you with, that joy in your in your life, as well as, reading books and or listening to a sermon or talking with friends.

I think there are several ways that we can find ourselves connecting with the voice of of God. And, not limiting ourselves to just one practice or another, but maybe some of us need to explore a lot of different ways in which we can try to more intentionally, actively listen to what god is saying in our life. And, you know, as I think about just, as we go throughout our day, as we are in our rhythms, whatever we're doing, kind of looking for what God might be saying in an interaction or, as we're just driving down the road or we're sitting in class, what might god be doing? So what what are some prompts there, guys, that we might be able to use to remind us? Okay.

Am I listening to god right now? What do you guys think? Are are are any prompts that we could use or clues or something to help remind us?

Yeah. I think in the stillness or in the silence, if you're gonna be intentional in sitting in that silence, I think sometimes if I'm if my brain is in different places, I use, like, a mantra or some sort of specific wording. And so sometimes it's just be still. Be still. And then when I try to think of something or my brain starts thinking, I'm I just remind myself, be still.

Be still. And that's what I keep my brain on. And then eventually, I can hear god's voice within that stillness. But it takes a while for your body to be in that stillness and know that that's a safe place to be. So know that that will take some time, but try the be still mantra and see if that helps you.

Again, I I firmly believe that god is in the business of wanting to have relationship with each one of us, and part of that relationship involves good communication. There's a great book that I would highly encourage if you haven't already, heard about it or bought it. It's a book by a guy named Parker Palmer. It's called Let Your Life Speak. And he talks about hearing God's voice.

And that, hearing God's voice begins with a journey downward and inward. And young adults, I firmly believe they want to know what they're meant to do, who they are meant to be. And Palmer says that this has got to begin with understanding how we can be better listeners to what God is doing in our lives and paying attention to what is happening with our lives, what enlivens us and what, gets us going, both the positive and the negative parts of who we are, but paying attention to, the rhythms of our life. And, and, and truly he's, gets us to the question, how can we be better listeners? And of course, Palmer, says that, one way to begin is discovering where our deep gladness meets the world's deep need.

I know some folks too who, have found the practice of listening to God through service. And I know we talk a lot about, our good friends over at Appalachia Service Project. But during the summer, they employ a ton of young adults at, 18 to 21, 22 range for the most part. But a lot of young adults go there and they serve because they know that something inside their lives, it responds really well to that. And that service opens up an encounter with God, a way to experience god that they haven't through anything else.

And I think service is a huge piece. And so how can you find ways to, serve others? Of course, that's what Jesus was all about. He talked about if you if you wanna be the leader, you've gotta be the sermon. And so when we serve others, when we place others above ourselves, I think that puts us in a position to really hear god and what god is doing.

And so I I think that's an interesting, way for us to to experience the voice of god is is through service and, doing things for others. And so, Molly, what do you what do you think about that? Because you've you've worked for Appalachia service project and you've mentioned before that that was something that really impacted you and

Absolutely. Appalachia service project also known as ASP was and still is something that I find to be a spiritual discipline for me. I do it every summer with my family. I go for a week. And before that, I was on staff with ASP for 4 summers and then for 15 months for a gap year in between college and going out and having my real career as they say.

But I loved working with ASP because I also think that I was around like minded people, and there's an opportunity when you're around people who feel similarly similarly to you and want to hear what God is saying also that you can really find who God is calling you to be when you're around other people who are also trying to find who God is calling them to be. And I've made some incredible friendships and individuals that are gonna be in my wedding now and people who, I love more than anything. So I encourage you to see what ASP is all about. And also, if that's not for you, find something that makes service or something like that feel like God can call you in that place.

I would agree with Molly and echo what she says about service. But what you know, as I listen to you talk, Sean, and then Molly, one of the things that really struck me is, I think without meaning to, for a long time, churches and religious institutions have said God speaks this way, and they have prescribed it down. And if you don't hear God that way, then you're like, oh, well, I guess I'm out of luck. And what I've heard echoed in all of our conversation here is there are so many different ways that God speaks. God hasn't stopped speaking, but if we think that God only speaks in audible voices from burning bushes in the middle of the wilderness, we're wrong.

Yeah.

And, God speaks in lots of ways. So I'm kind of cooled out by that.

Absolutely.

Yeah. Wow. And I think for a lot of folks from different faith traditions, I know that well, I think, some folks from more of a Catholic tradition, you rely on, your your priest to give you, that voice of god. And some other faith traditions, they do. They they want you to rely more on the pastor or as the instrument of of hearing god.

But as I as I look at scripture and my own experience, I think god is trying to speak to us in all different kinds of ways. Again, if god is using a donkey to speak to somebody, then god can certainly use an ass like me to speak to whoever needs to hear what god needs to say. So, Jesus says at the end that, for those who have ears, let them so, hopefully, we are being intentional with the way that we are listening to God. And I was I was saying a little earlier that I I know a friend who they use, walking through a doorway or opening a door as their little signal to remember, okay, god. What are you trying to say here?

What's how can I hear you? Because just that act of a doorway entering into something new, something different was kind of a trigger for them to think about, okay, god. I'm I'm I'm help me to remember to what you're what you might be trying to say in this moment. But, I know we've talked a lot about a lot of different things, and we could probably say a whole lot more about ways that would connect us a little better with hearing the voice of god. But, we wanna hear now from you.

We want to get your feedback. What what are some practices that you have found beneficial for hearing God? And so, Molly is about to share ways in which you can connect with us and so that we can also, be privy, to what's going on in your life and and how you are connecting to the voice of God. So my, what are ways that people can respond back and, share their comments and and even questions?

Absolutely. So if you want to connect with us, you can connect with us on Instagram and then also on Facebook. Our Instagram is spiritual.not_religiouspodcast. And then you can find us for gmail@spiritualnotreligiouspodcast@gmail.com. So we look forward to hearing from you.

Awesome. Do either one of you have, any last, minute comments or things that maybe we didn't quite get to? Because I don't want because you guys are just so full of wisdom and and, I don't wanna miss out on any of that, but, anything you'd like to share in closing?

I can offer that. I'm just so grateful that people are part of this community and that they are looking to come here to find, maybe both to them. And so I hope that you continue to have God speak to you in different ways and that you're able to see that it can come in so many different ways and that no one is going to tell you how it will be. So let yourself be free in that.

I would echo what Molly said, and don't let anyone tell you how God will speak to you, or even try to put on you what they think God is saying about you. You can listen to what they have to say, but if it doesn't echo true with you, if if your own discernment says not, give yourself the freedom. If you're not hearing, if you're not hearing from the divine right now, if spirit doesn't seem to be speaking in your life, maybe try some practices. If that practice doesn't work for you, try something else. Don't let any, practice that doesn't work for you become an occasion for you to beat yourself up because, well, you know, James said, if I did this I might hear from God.

I the the operative word might. It might work and it might not. So find what works for you, and that's what's most important.

That's great. And I really appreciate both of you and the conversation that we've had today. My hope is that this has been helpful for you guys as you're trying to discern a lot that's going on in your life right now. We can appreciate the things that you guys are having to, make decisions on and just know that you've got us here. Please reach out to us.

We would love to hear from you, and just know that, you have a community right here who loves you, who is cheering for you. And, we're on the same journey as we try to explore these, different topics of spirituality and religion. And, we really appreciate you being with us here today, and we just pray that this has, been a very helpful, meaningful time. And, we look forward to hearing from you and look forward to, having our next, discussion in a couple of weeks. So we'll be dropping 2 podcasts a month, and, hopefully, you can share these podcasts with others and, help this community grow.

And we will talk to you guys soon. God bless.