Spiritual, Not Religious

Hey, y'all. Welcome to Spiritual Not Religious. This is a podcast for young adults that explores the intricacies of God's kingdom

and the modern world.

Welcome back to another episode of spiritual not religious with your host, the infinitely precious and unconditionally loved James Henry the incomparable and utterly remarkable Molly June Miller and yours truly Sean Winburn. Now we wanna be a place where young adult voices can be heard regarding their thoughts and feelings about the church about religion, God, Jesus and all things spiritual and we truly wanna hear from you and there are several ways for you to connect with us that we will share later in the podcast. We also wanna be a place where church religious leaders can come and listen to find out how they might need to better engage the crowd that claims to be spiritual but not religious. Today, we're gonna take a deep dive into the not religious side of the spiritual but not religious and talk about and discover what does it mean when we say we're not religious when both spiritual and religious are so closely related and interconnected even. And I think some folks get a bit confused by this.

So we wanna explore what this shift away from religion is all about. So let's get right into it. Guys, how are we doing today?

Hey, friends. I am doing super well. I'm super excited about this topic and the light that it can bring and the understanding it can bring for young adults and also older individuals than young adults. Just people who are looking to discover more about divinity. I'm really excited about it.

Awesome.

What about you, James?

I too am excited about it. We're in a new year. It seems very appropriate to be launching the podcast in the new year. As you all might guess, we're prerecording these and setting them up in advance, and so we're just on the cusp of our first full episode dropping. And so we are, hanging on the edge of our seat as well as, looking forward to continuing the conversation, and I'm very excited about it.

I'm, you know, Sean and Molly June are people I deeply respect and love spending time with. And so, I and I love chatting with them. So, I'm thankful to be a part of this. Thanks for inviting me in, guys.

We love you, James.

Oh, absolutely. You know, and what I love about this is, like, you know, we have our experiences and maybe some expertises here and there, but really, we're just a bunch of folks who are also still learning, still trying to figure this out, still trying to understand, but we just think that there's enough folks out there who are curious about this as much as we are and wanna have this conversation, and maybe even bring a little more understanding, a little more resolution to it. So I'm excited about it, plus being able to hang out with you guys for, all every once in a while like this is truly rewarding. So it's great. It's really good.

But today, our topic, a fun one. There it is. I mean, this is the kind of fun I'm talking about. James Henry brings this. Doesn't doesn't he, Molly?

Like

Yes. He does. Oh my goodness.

Are crazy.

I love you guys.

I don't

think my screen will do that. Like, I need to, like, figure out what program I need to get because I don't have it. I don't have the touch. So alright, I gotta work on this. Religion.

Alright. Let's get into this. So, we we can find statistics about church attendance, that across the board as a general whole. And what I've been looking at is statistics, that were were taken last year, about just overall church attendance being kind of down, some churches that are closing. But young adults who are more or less, backing away from, going to church, as reasons for, you know, this this decline in in in church membership.

And so, James, you know, you, are a minister currently. Can you kinda speak a little bit to what your specific congregation is experiencing in this regard? Do you see a little bit of a decline? Do you see more people coming in? I mean, what and then just in your position as a minister in United Methodist Church, what are you seeing right now?

Well, it's anecdotal, of course, because it's just my congregation. I do Sure. But I do have a lot of conversations with other clergy people. And the pandemic accelerated, if anything, the, decline of a local congregations. Some are coming back and bouncing back in a big way.

At least, you know, that's the reports I hear. What's interesting to me is I I grew a much larger group of online participants, which means, of course, you you can listen and take in what you want, and you don't have to necessarily you get the message without necessarily the full sense of community at least of what it used to be. I'm not saying that's bad. I'm not saying that's good. I'm saying it, I'm having different people who are showing up in worship now, than were there before.

But some of the people that I would never have guessed would stop have stopped. You know, coming in person, you know, I I thought I you know, in my conversations with them is that they still feel just as spiritual and connected. They would say that the church I serve, Saint James, not named for me, is is still their congregation, but, the way they participate is has has changed. And that is, that's what I'm seeing anyway. Thanks for asking, Sean.

Molly, do you have anything wise to add to that?

I would say so I know I've said in the prior podcast, but if this is your first time listening, I work at the Wesley Foundation of UT Martin. And so that's the University of Tennessee at Martin. I just started in August, and I absolutely love it. I've seen so we are kind of in a rebuilding place at this Wesley Foundation, which is a United Methodist organization. And with all that being said, we are at a rebuilding phase, but we are seeing students from the local community come in and want to find community and want to find Jesus and wanna find love and peace.

So as much as the church is declining, I think what's beautiful is that I'm seeing more young adults come in to church spaces that we're now naming something a little bit different, which is just a place of fellowship and of love and of connection. So I'm really hopeful in that regard. I'm definitely sad that the local church is declining, but I'm excited about the fact that young adults still wanna be plugged in in different ways.

Mhmm. Right. And and I think that that's what makes this podcast so important is that we do have a lot of people who are still very much interested in spiritual things. Right?

Absolutely.

They have they have not waned in their desire to know who God is, deeply. But for some reason, it doesn't seem like they're finding those connections through places like the church. And we'll see a decline in membership, across the board, but yet there's not a decline in interest and and wanting to to know more about spiritual things. Absolutely. And I think that that's so interesting.

Right? Like, there's still that desire to want to press into god, but they're not, for whatever reason, seemingly finding it in a church setting. And I think that's

Yeah.

Something that we need to talk about a little bit, and and maybe go through some of the reasons for that. I know the pandemic was a huge catalyst for kind of knocking people out of that routine. Yeah. And so and it'll be interesting to see kind of where that goes over the next, several months and even years to see if that even, comes back, and what does bring people back. I do know that, church, it seems, as I read it in new testament scripture, was really a a place to connect with God, connect with other people, this community.

Right? But for some reason, young adults particularly are just not finding that. What do you guys think?

Wanna go, Molly? Sure. As a young adult?

So as a young adult, I I personally think that young adults have the right idea that spirituality and religion should be pushed beyond the four walls of what the church is. I think we've been so confined to a space that we said this is the space that is where worship happens. And I think it's truly beautiful that young adults are like, no. Worship can happen in my house online watching James' church. Worship can happen in a space that we have at my college.

There's so many different places and spaces that it can occur, and I'm really excited and hopeful about the fact that we're pushing it beyond the bounds of what we currently know. With that being said, I obviously would love for the local church to continue to thrive. And so we have a great partnership with our Wesley Foundation and with the church that is local to our area, that's United Methodist. And we do things together, and we worship together, and we experience together because that's how we can connect and make sure that they both thrive in the best way.

I love that. I love that. You know, I I kinda wonder. I mean, I you know, that old song war, what is it good for? That's what I hear.

Like, religion, what is it good for? Absolutely nothing.

And I think a lot of people feel that way.

It's just like, nah.

Yeah.

We need it's it's does more harm than it does good. Right? Yeah. And so I think kinda getting into that, we we wanna get into a little bit of the organized and institutionalized and highly structured aspects of what might be, problematic for young adults with, with with religion. I think you get some other things going on there too, where young adults might feel unwelcomed.

There's a hypocritical aspect. There's the judgmental aspect that I think that are associated, with the term religion. And I also wanna talk about some of the logistics of it. People aren't attending a church just because young adults' lives are very they're highly transient. Right?

Yeah. I was just talking with a young adult recently who is, away from home, away from his church setting, and is is working in various locations and just doesn't feel like he's able to connect with the church, loves god, and would like to be a part of a church, but doesn't feel like he can be a part of that church because, you know, his his schedule is a little bit all over the place. And, doesn't feel like he can really jump in and connect because he knows that all things are gonna change real quick and soon. Yeah. And then there's just this other aspect too of young adults that don't feel like they'll be accepted when they walk through the door or maybe their views, choices, decisions on things won't be accepted.

And so these are all kind of matters that I would love for us to kinda, you know, walk through a little bit and and get your your feedback on. To hear some of that stuff that I just threw up, what does that make you think of? What what kinda bubbles to the top there for you?

Well, I do think there's, I I try to I try to look at it as a both, you know, as a both and not an either or. When I think about spirituality or spiritual, I tend to think of a more individual approach. You know, finding that space that fits for us. And, when I think of religion, I do think of organized religion, Sean. I think you're right on the point there.

I I tend to think of or disorganized religion depending on where you are. But, you know, it's it's a group setting. I think there's a place for both of those. The challenge for, a lot of the young adults I've talked to is the church thinks it has all the right answers, tends to believe it has all the right answers and what they get when they show up is discounted, preached to, not with, and certain expectations are laid on them that may or may not fit. You know, for generations prior to now, you know, you sort of you you may have grown up in a organized religious setting.

And then when you finally when you stayed and took you know, people were not nearly as mobile, you didn't leave your community and go somewhere else, you just kind of took up the mantle that your, guardians, parents, whoever they were, grand parents, whoever they were, grand parents had always done and you just kind of kept following in those footsteps. And now when somebody shows up new and says, I'm just not sure this thing works for me this way. Instead of saying, well, tell us what kinds of ways you think it might work, what we say in organized religion at least sometimes is, oh, well, this is the way that's always worked and this is the way it's going to be, which leaves the person who says, this isn't quite working for me with the the choice. Leave, you know, don't return because or try to bend who they are to fit something they feel doesn't fit who they are. And I think one of the things that that idea of exploring ourselves and young adults are really trying to figure out, I think all young adults for all time have tried to figure it out who they are, but this generation seems much more comfortable saying, listen.

I gotta figure out who I am so I can figure out how I fit into this God thing, the spirit thing, this divine thing that's working around me, and I don't wanna be put in your box. Religion is a container. It it can be a wonderful container that, passes on traditions and ways of understanding. But if it becomes just a rigid container, that doesn't allow for any change or growth. I mean, for the first, you know, for a long period of time in the church's history, the 1st 1000 years or more, there was a lot of adaptive movement in the church.

Things like the whole pine tree thing was a pagan, reality that we brought in to the church because we could see the evergreen feel of it, and we brought that kind of God's evergreen feel. We we adapted and adopted other kinds of ways of seeing the, these traditions outside the church and blended them in so Christ fit in everywhere, which Christ already does. We got kind of rigid and very defined, and that is I I think that's uncomfortable for a lot of people, but, certainly, for young people who are trying to find a niche that really fits them.

Absolutely. I love that James said that religion is rigid. I think that that's something that I've often thought about of religion being rigid and the idea that everyone needs to conform or if you don't fit in this box, then you're not welcome in this place, which I think is the opposite of what Jesus had taught us and continues to show us over and over again in the gospels. I think there's also this unfortunate connotation that if you don't conform, then you're going to hell or something bad is going to happen to you or those that you love are not gonna make it into the good place as they say. And so I think that there's this level of judgment and this level of harm that has been pushed on to generations that now people are saying, hey.

I'm not gonna let this continue to hurt me. And so they're stepping away because they're setting a good boundary, which I think is great for them. But how can we have those people who set those boundaries find a place to belong that doesn't feel rigid or harmful to them? And that's where I think I mean, I'm biased, obviously, but college ministry is one of those places that this happens. College ministry like a Wesley Foundation or I know for the Catholics, they have Catholics on campus.

And, for the church of Christ, they have church of Christ on campus for students. I think that those are great places for things like this to change and for people who have set boundaries with themselves to not be harmed by the local church can then move into places where they really feel like this is a home for them.

Yeah. And I think what I'm also discovering when I'm having conversations with, folks in and out of the church, I I think one of the biggest fears, that we're finding is the fear of compromise that churches feel like they have to make in order to get people into their church. And so they don't wanna compromise their their beliefs, and the and their faith just to bring in more folks. And I think that's been, an issue for a lot of churches where it's like, well, how do we how do we hold that line where we, you know, we love the sinner but hate the sin. You know, and I know that that's a whole another topic we can probably get into and what is that even mean but where folks feel like they they they want people to come in, but we want you to come in so you could be more like us and believe in the way that we do.

And that's difficult. How can we learn to give space to a young adult who may believe something completely different, but how can you still give them space and love and then and embrace them, even though it makes you feel uncomfortable? Maybe, you know, opposes something that you hold very dear and that you believe very strongly. But I think a a lot of young adults, they they they feel that when they walk into a church setting. And there there's a there's an impasse almost.

Right? Like, neither side feels like they can really give one way or the other. There's not much flexibility, which goes back to the rigid container that James was talking about. I even heard it from, a theologian about, brickianity versus flexibility. You know, church is brick and mortar, and it has to be this way.

And you start taking a brick or 2 out, and the whole thing crumbles other and then he compared it to, like, a trampoline, which is flexible, but still stable. And I don't know just I think those are fears that a lot of churches have and it's that religious part that we can't we can't change anything about what we believe or the whole thing comes crumbling down. Which that's a bit of a shallow religion if if that's what it takes. You know? I mean,

what

do you guys think? What what what are you thinking?

The I think Oh, go ahead. Sorry, Molly.

I was just gonna say when Sean said, you know, that's a shallow religion, I think we have to remember that the foundation of it is not the god that we want god to be. The foundation is who god truly is. And I know that Shane Claiborne says it really well when he says that if the god that you believe in believes everything you do, then you're creating god to be someone god isn't. And I think that that's a really good way to put that. So sorry, James, for interrupting.

I just thought that was a really good point that Sean had.

He didn't interrupt at all. We we get visual clues because we're visual even though this is mostly an audio experience for you who are listening to us. And I saw that I I should have seen that Molly was about to speak. The only thing that, you know, it's very interesting to me how quickly, I loved, I've heard this in the church a lot. I love when Sean was talking about, you know, love the sinner, hate the sin.

You know, I I think that part of the challenge is we don't love the sinner that's ourselves.

Yeah.

And we want to define which which sins, which missing the marks, which is really the origin of the word sin is missing the mark. It's it was a, it was an archer returner. And, if you miss the mark, what do you do? You shoot again. You know, but, instead we, we have defined someone else and the church has always had issues with sexuality since the early church fathers.

We have defined it as the origin of how original sin, if you want to go there, was passed on to each other. You know, it was it was sex that made it happen. So we've always been uncomfortable with dealing as sexuality as a gift, a gift from God, not as something, you know, we we don't talk about that stuff, you know, and it's only got one purpose, reproduction, you know, kind of thing. Instead of talking about the beauty of it, we don't. So the the challenge becomes we've defined most churches have defined things around that as that's someplace we can't go.

But there are all sorts of things we're okay going there that bothers that, you know, but so to circle back around, to where we to where I started, it's very I think we're just meant to love. We we don't even have to have that term, sinner, and hate the sin. I I think we need to come back around to love. I mean, Jesus just started to talk to people exactly where they are. You know?

You missed the mark. Well, go and don't miss the mark again. That's what he says to the woman caught in adultery in John 8. You know, so, and where was the man caught in adultery? But that's probably another conversation too.

You know, why wasn't he out there getting ready to be stoned? I was just, you know, where is

Thank you,

Jay. Sorry. That's a whole another Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Whole another way.

Sorry.

Yep. Yep. Yep. Truth.

Come on. I just think, I just think we we could start just stop this sentence with love the person.

Yeah,

and that's you know, don't hate anything you know. It's however, we we it'll take some work. We we've got the container is a sometimes containers have to be broken. You have to make sure the container is solid and then break it open and reorganize it and rebuild the container in ways that can contain more because god can't be contained by any container.

I think James is absolutely right. Like, God cannot be contained. And I think, it's a scary place for a lot of, church leaders, who feel like they have to define God. It it has to fit fit nice and neat into this box that we can all understand and agree upon. And that is what the church and religion has become to some, you know, nice tidy.

Here's the formula, and here is is how we all must agree to believe and I think a big part of of religion and and that sense of its understanding is that you've you've had, the early century church fight to get these beliefs in such a way that made sense to everybody, but didn't kinda fly off into heresy and all of these other things. And, I mean, people, they they lost their lives. They lost a lot of things just based on these foundational principles. Right? And I think it's important on the one hand to lean into, okay.

Well, here's what we believe and here's why we believe it. But on the other hand, I think we have to make a lot more room and space for these discussions to happen. And even if someone believes wildly different than than than, you know, we might, that that's okay, you know, because god is big enough. And I think that's what one of the things James was getting to is god is big enough for this. And we need to trust that god is big enough.

It it might kind of be an affront to us at first, but, you know, allow god to do the work. I mean, that's that's god's job anyway. And I think religion and that understanding has taken that job away from god a little bit, and we now have the job. We must defend god, and we must stand up for god and no. That's not it at all.

And back to what James was saying about just love. Like, that's our job. That's what we're called to do, and I think that's what we're going into. James, you wanna jump back in there and kinda finish up what you were thinking?

Well, you know, as I listened to it, the first, until the church became the state religion in roughly 325 ish, there was a lot of diversity in the. The word heresy was not used until after the church became, aligned with the state, with empire. And prior to that, there was Thessalonica, church in Thessalonica, church in Alexandria, Egypt, all the churches look different and there was room. There were some core things they needed to sort of, you know, the Jesus Christ, creator, spirit in some way. Yeah.

Heck, even the idea of Trinity is a construct that we created. You know, spirit is mentioned in Bible, Abba, Father, creator is mentioned in Bible, Jesus is there. So we've got father, son, and spirit. So we decided, okay, there's 3 of them. And we're gonna have that Trinitarian way of approaching things.

Great. I think that's a good idea. But it's an idea. It is a derivation, a way of explaining something, and the church was just constantly pulling and pushing. And if we had been having this conversation on, you know, in the year 200, you know, we might appeal to 1 bishop who had this list of, inspired writings that we should read And then some other person who had a different set of inspired readings that we should read.

It what in 3/25 is when we decided what would make the Bible and what was extraneous. Mhmm. Prior to that, it was like, okay. If those Coptic Christians down in the Egypt area needed a couple of extra books in there, well, it's okay. They're figuring it out.

We're figuring it out. Now we think we've got it all figured out. And I think for young adults, it's like, why can't we read the gospel of Thomas? Why can't we read the, what what is wrong with the reading? Well, it's, we've got a long list of heresies that arose after 3 25.

Prior to that time, it was explore, reach out.

Absolutely.

And it's a slippery slope.

Absolutely. I wanna I wanna share one quote before we go into our second half where we talk about the good things and the exciting things about spirituality and religion. Rebecca, McLaughlin, she says she's the author of confronting Christianity, which is a really good book. It's on Audible if you wanna listen to it. That's what I do.

And she says to say that religion is bad for you is like saying drugs are bad for you without distinguishing cocaine from life saving medication. I think that that's a real important thing to remember as we talk about the nuances of all of this.

And I do think it comes back around to the idea of both and rather than either or. I do think that religion can help a spiritual person be grounded. Yeah. And, the reality is we don't always have to, have all of the answers.

Then let's reclaim the word religion. And what was it intended for? What was its intended purpose? And so hang in there with us. We'll be right back.

Okay. And we are back. Thank you so much for being a part of this conversation. We are really looking forward to hearing from you, your thoughts on any of this. We would love to hear from you, and then like I we'll give you more opportunities to find out how to connect with us, because we would love to hear from you, and then bring those comments, back up into our next podcast.

But we are talking about religion and, why that is such a buzzword for so many young adults. Why it is such a difficult thing to want to embrace. Whereas spirituality is fine, but wanting to associate with anything religious, is just not any good. And so this second half of our podcast, we wanna look at how how we can reclaim the term religion, and maybe even look at what it was originally intended to be, and kind of look at maybe how we kind of lost the true essence of what that was supposed to mean. And before we get started, I wanna, offer up a verse that comes out of the New Testament book, James chapter 1 verse 27, which specifically starts off with the word religion.

It says religion that is pure and undefiled is this. So here's our definition. To visit orphans and widows in their affliction and to keep oneself unstained from the world. So we're we got this definition now of what religion is supposed to look like. And I do wanna circle back a little bit to the quote that Molly ended with in our first segment, which I think was just so poignant, and really kinda offers a lot of food for thought.

So, Molly, can you actually give us that quote again Yeah. And then kinda, like, speak a little bit more about that?

Absolutely. So like I said, in our first half, Rebecca McLaughlin, she is the author of a book that is called Confronting Christianity, and you can find that on Audible. And she says, to say that religion is bad for you is like saying drugs are bad for you without distinguishing cocaine from life saving medication.

Mhmm.

I think we should sit on that quote for a moment and think about what does that do for us? What bubbles to the surface for us as I say to my students? And I think for me, what bubbles to the surface is there's many moments where we can condemn religion and say that it's bad and that it does this and that it's harmed people. But also we need to remember, which it absolutely has. Absolutely.

There's been a lot of harm there. But also there is some good, and there is a beautiful thing that religion has done, which it's created community. It's created for people. It's a way that people can connect with one another and with the divine deeply and find meaningful and beautiful connection within it. And so there's so many nuances in the way that it can be so harmful, but it can be so good.

And I love the way that Rebecca McLaughlin says that because I think that we can all understand and see that better when we understand what she says between the distinguishing the distinguishing between cocaine and life saving medication and how religion can be both of those things.

As you were talking, it made me think about, first Corinthians 12 when, you know, the writer brings out, both the individual gifts, but it's all part of the body. And I think that the balance between religion and spirituality is the spirituality tends to be very individually focused. What do I do? How do I and it's it seems to be an in in in, a journey inward to discover identity, divine identity, our sense of connection. And religion, when we talk about being religious, we it it seems to involve certain particular practices, gathering in groups, and, of course, we have a traditional time that we mostly gather in groups.

A lot of churches are caught on that 11 o'clock time on Sunday mornings. A lot of people work on that time now. So how do they get there if they can't be religious at 11 o'clock on Sunday morning? When can they be religious? That's partially why we, you know, we record our worship, and it's available anytime for people, you know, to see any time and to participate in any time because you can't can't always be available at the time we've chosen to offer, that, so I I do think that balance comes out in 1st Corinthians 12.

Individual gifts, we bring them, but they're especially empowered when you bring them into a community. Some people are really good at teaching and making things clear. Others are really good at giving or serving or, you know, being prophets, you know, calling out truth in the world. There are people who do all those things and the community then is stronger. I think the implication for me is really spirituality is something I can do by myself.

Yeah. Religion is something that it takes a community to do. And that's why I think we need both. Finding that sense of community, that participation, because religion, the original word, is is caught up in the re and ligio piece. And to do it again, re is to do again, and ligio is to attach, to connect.

You know, think of ligaments in our body. So to reattach, to reconnect, and religious reconnection is reconnecting, with the divine and with the self in that whole beautiful dance that is life itself. So just some thoughts.

That was and it's beautiful. That is and and I love that that kind of gives a whole new impression of the word religion, which I I really truly believe has just received. It's just due criticism. And I completely understand why so many people kinda wanna distance themselves from that term. And we've talked about it, and we probably haven't even scratched the surface of talking about the negative connotations of religion and and how it's affected so many people in an adverse way.

And but to to kinda, like, go back to the the the original meaning for that word, for me, anyway. It it really does kind of bring a lot of of healing and a and a definitely a deeper appreciation for what it's supposed to be, what it's meant to be. Right? What do you think, Molly?

I think that the word religion has harmed people, and so we don't wanna use that because we don't want to be affiliated with the harm of that word. But I think that there is a way that we can reclaim it and that we can reconnect to what religion is in the way that James was talking about reconnection and what that word really means. And if if it really means reconnection, then I think we need to take it back and reclaim it and be able to let people know that it's not a bad word or and it could be a word that can be good. And I think that we've created spirit or we've talked about spirituality because that word doesn't feel as harmful. That word feels more safe.

And I I like how that feels safe. But how can we make the word religion feel safe again? I think that's something that I'm trying to figure out and that I can't do alone. I think we all together need to reconnect in order to make that possible.

And then just the idea of community too that religion brings that James is talking about, which, I and I love that that is also something that's a little bit, reclaimed is the sense of community. And yet so many church communities, for one reason or the other, don't make young adults feel like they're part of that community or they're welcomed into that community. And I think that's a struggle. And so I'm I'm wondering how can I don't know? What are some ideas that we can throw out there that might be helpful to church communities?

It's like, okay. Woah. Here's how you can be a community that fosters a a welcoming and nurturing, place for young adults to feel like they can plug into.

Yeah. I think this is a great question because I'm trying to figure this out in my new role at the Wesley Foundation. And I think it first starts with moving the church beyond the 4 walls. I think it really starts with the church is not a building. It's a people, and it's a place that you feel within yourself when you're in community and your hearts align with others who feel similarly and feel the divine altogether.

And so moving the church beyond the 4 walls can look like having a barbecue outside, having a picnic outside, inviting people from the community to a central place that feels safe. I think that that word safety and feeling safe is something we don't consider enough. I think those four walls are a place where people feel unsafe. And so how can we make it safer? Which I believe would be doing it outside, doing it where people can just walk by and see.

Or like James had mentioned, having a live stream so that individuals can see what is this place look like? Can this be safe for me? And then they can enter it once they know that it's a safe place. So there's many different ways, but I think moving beyond the 4 walls is the first thing that we need to do because that is unfortunately right now where the harm is living.

Yeah. It's a festering reality. There's there sometimes church feels that it's the rigidity and the lack of respect of people. And if if the church has chosen to discount a person for who they are, then that is harmful. Now, I I I I love what Molly said.

I do think safety anywhere is an illusion. I don't think there's any such thing as safety in our world. I don't think the church is a safe place. We make it as safe as we can. We make our lives.

We try not to make Mhmm. Choices that are, unsafe for us. But I think that the idea that there is any place that's truly safe, I I not to be morbid, I could have a heart attack right now while we're doing this podcast. I don't think it it doesn't feel stressful to me, so I don't think that would happen. But I mean, and and just being alive does not, you know, the God that I know from my perspective protects us from nothing and sustains us in everything.

And if only people who feel like I've got the right answer could let go enough to say, well, I've got the right answer that I've inherited, but I'm willing to at least hear somebody else, speak and be respectful of those folks right where they are. You know, we accept people right where they are, just as they are. To borrow a phrase from an organization that I love dearly, Appalachia Service Project. And its founder, Tex. You know, he Yes.

You know, we accept people right where they are, just as they are. And I think if we if the church could do that, it won't be a safe place because there'll always be somebody in there who, who feels like they are the they're right. We all grow through a place in our lives. It's developmental reality. Reality for each one of us.

We develop through places where we want clear absolute answers. There's a part of our developmental once we move, you know, so there will always be people at that I need answers even if they're pet answers, so I can at least have a straw man, straw woman, straw person to charge against, and stretch myself, but I don't think that the church can ever be truly safe. We can have policies that protect people as best we can. We will hear you wherever you are and respect that you are you. And that what you bring is a gift.

But just some thoughts about how I don't know that church itself can ever be truly a safe place. We can only make policies that helped, but there'll always be someone who skirts around the edge, who refuses to respect another person. And that's, and do we then throw that person away who refuses to respect another person because and then we've gone the other way, you know. We, you know, we're tolerant, but we're intolerant of the intolerant person. You know, and Yeah.

And that's still intolerance. So I don't there's not an easy answer. But I do think helping people form communities in which they can really talk about how they're feeling, really talk about who they are in spaces where they can be themselves, may or may not be able to happen inside the buildings we call churches, but certainly in communities where faith exists.

And I think it's gonna be really difficult. That's diff that's the difficult work I think a lot of churches are gonna be called to. Because we do have a a culture, especially in America, where it's I'm right. You're wrong, and it's gonna be this way. And I feel like we're kinda trending more in that direction.

And if you can't get on board, you're off the bus. Yeah. And, again, I think it's also the whole fear of feeling like we're compromising something, and accepting someone into our community that might not look like us, might not think like us, might not believe like us. But how can we create the capacity the flexibility the vulnerability to accept people like you said James like Tex Evans said, right where they are just as they are. I even think that's a quote from mister Rogers, said something very similar to that.

And there's a guy who who knew something about neighbors and welcoming in everyone and no matter who they were or where they're coming from. III just think that that's gonna be the difficult work of of reestablishing this concept of religion. And my hope is that there's there's some ministers out there who are listening to this that it does spark some curiosity into, well, how can we be a little more open to just listening? How about just listening? Start there, which I think would make a world of difference, especially for young adults who are questioning so many things, and they're still trying to figure out so much stuff about the world and their life and their purpose and their role in everything and let alone just what they believe.

And if churches can be a place where they can come in and regardless of what is said. Walk out knowing that they were loved. Wanted back into this community

man. I think that would

make a tremendous difference and I think that was the fact Jesus on the people that he encountered was that didn't matter who you were, He was going to listen he was going to engage he was going to offer passion. And I think these are traits and qualities that the church desperately needs if we're going to begin to, change perspectives on this word religion.

Absolutely. I think too that young adults need to be reminded as a young adult. I'm gonna remind myself as I say this, but we're the next generation of individuals to be a part of the church or be a part of a spiritual organization or a religious organization if that's what we choose to be a part of. And so we really can reclaim it. We really can change it.

We are the next generation of people to change it. And so I hope if you're listening to this, that this kind of puts a fire in you that you wanna change things. You want things to look different, and you want to go against the status quo of what we're experiencing and what people are thinking religion has to be or who God is to them. Because if you're someone who's like, hey. I wanna change this, and I don't wanna do it alone.

Well, you have me. So if you email us, I am more than happy to do it with you.

Yeah.

And I know you also have 2 other individuals who aren't young adults right now. They look like young adults, but they're not young adults at this current time, but they also wanna do it with you too.

I've got a quote that I'd also like to share. This is a quote from doctor Denise Janssen, and she's a professor of Christian education at Virginia Union University. And in her book called, Reclaimed Faith in an Emerging Generation, she says, according to the findings of this research, the church serves young adults well when it invites them into real relationships with people of all ages, gives them opportunities to use their gifts to serve others, and gives them space to work things out in their own time while maintaining the connection that caring friends have when one is struggling. And the church does not serve young adults well when it fails to live up to its own call of God with everything it has in his and to love neighbor as self. Mhmm.

And so Amen. I think it's a great call for for churches, and I think there's a probably a great reevaluation that needs to happen across, denominations, Catholic Protestantism, Judaism, all of it. Like, I I think we need to reevaluate some things, because people are turned off so dramatically to religion. But how can we reclaim that? And my hope is that our our podcast is kinda spoken to that.

Of course, we couldn't get into everything, but hopefully this at least starts to conjure up some some thoughts. Anything that you guys want to to close with before we sign

off? I would just say both of you hit something really important. Ultimately, church needs to be about relationship and not about belief. It's nice to have the things that you think are true. Over a lifetime, you will, add some things, and you will subtract a lot of things from that list.

And if it's about relationship, that never goes away. It changes. It grows. It, takes on new meanings. But I think both Sean and Molly, I love what you had to say.

In the end, it's about relationship. You can only know so much or have your list so long, if you have no sense of eternal connection to love and each other. And in the end, if the church can come back to its relational connection with God and each other, we will, I I think anybody could who wants a connection could, could love that, could be a part of that, if we remember it's about relationships. So thank you both for bringing that back to my mind. What a gift.

And I think I'll just add one more thing. Just remember that you're loved even if you go into places that you feel like you're not. There are 3 people here that love you deeply even though you may have not met us yet or, maybe you won't because you're in a different part of the country. But know that, we love you. We're here for you, and we want you to know that if this is your church, we are happy that you're a part of it.

Awesome. Yeah. And I'm looking forward to future connections, and please reach out to us. And we're still kind of in the beginning phases of this reboot of this podcast, but we are looking forward to connecting with you. So send in your questions, send in your responses, your thoughts, your feedback, whatever you have.

And Molly is gonna, close this out with how to get a hold of us.

Absolutely. If you wanna get a hold of us on Instagram, we are spiritual.not_religiouspodcast. And And then if you wanna get a hold of us on Gmail, if you wanna send us an email, please do. I check those a lot. Please send us one at spiritual not religious podcast at gmail.com.

We will be excited to hear from you.

Alright. Hey. We are spiritual not religious. And for Molly and James, I'm Sean, and we look forward to our next podcast with you, so don't miss us. Share us, like us, and respond, and we are looking forward to hearing from you.

In the meantime, you are loved. We love you guys, and we'll talk to you soon.