Spiritual, Not Religious

Mollie: 00:03

Hey, y'all. Welcome to Spiritual, Not Religious. This is a podcast for young adults that explores the intricacies of God's kingdom

Mollie: 00:10

and the modern world.

Shawn: 00:21

Hey, friends, and welcome back to another episode of Spiritual, Not Religious. I'm your host, Shawn Winburn, and I'm joined by my good friends and wonderful cohosts, James Henry and Mollie June Miller Bochman. And on behalf of the three of us, we just wanted to say thanks for joining us as we get into all kinds of topics related to issues connected with being spiritual, not religious, and a few wild rabbit trails we find ourselves going down, thanks to James. Now make sure to reach out to us if you have a certain topic you'd like to hear us discuss or if you have thoughts on something we have already mentioned. We would love to hear from you.

Shawn: 01:02

And if you are one of those exceptional listeners who likes to encourage others to check us out, We give you a very blessed filled thank you, and we appreciate you. And speaking of appreciating our listeners, we do wanna give a shout out to one of our very exceptional and faithful listeners, doctor Jane Chima. Jane is just one of these wonderful people that you definitely wanna meet. Always encouraging, always wanting to bring the best out and the people that she's around, and just a really fun person. So thank you, Jane, for not only being you, but for your faithful following of this podcast, and for just how super awesome you are to so many.

Shawn: 01:48

We appreciate you. In this episode, we are going to take a look at how the gospel of fear has found its way into our culture and why several faith communities seem to be making it a central theme of their identity. And for many young and emerging adults who are trying to understand and connect with a god who, they understand has conveyed a message of hope, of loving all kinds of folks in all kinds of places, and explicitly saying that perfect love drives out fear. The message coming across is one of instilling fear of the big bad world we all live in and just about everyone in it. And if you're listening, it's probably including you.

Shawn: 02:38

For a gospel message that says, do not be afraid as many times as it does, there sure seems to be a lot of more, fear creeping in and around that has a lot of faith filled folks on edge. Now are there legitimate concerns to be fearful in this day and age that faith communities have grounds to stand on, or are faith communities missing the boat here on living out lives that depict a different kind of fearless faith. Now we're gonna talk about this and so much more. So let's get started. James and Mollie, catch us up on how you're doing, what is new in your world.

Shawn: 03:16

Mollie, how are you?

Mollie: 03:21

Hey, friends. I am doing really well. I, am just wrapping up our year, our school year with UT Martin Wesley, where I'm the director. And I'm also in seminary as well, and so I'm finishing up my first year of seminary. My husband and I have almost been married for a year, which is, like, insane to think about, And things are good.

Mollie: 03:43

Yeah. I'm excited for the summer. The allergies of the up and down here in Tennessee is really hard. But other than that, it's been good. What about you, James?

James: 03:52

Everything is it's it's allergy season which is a dance that I dance with every year and sometimes in between. So just constantly but that's just a downer. So let's not talk about allergies. Otherwise life is pretty good. You know, I'm almost through with my first year in a new parish after thirty three years in my previous one.

James: 04:21

So and they have been very receiving. I'm well received at the church I serve now and still learning my way around but I love the community I live in and I love the people I get to serve and most of all, I love serving the eternal divine infinite beauty and mystery that we tend to call God.

Shawn: 04:47

Nice. And what I'm hearing from you both is that you're dancing. So regardless of what's happening, you guys are Right? This little dance of the allergy dance.

Mollie: 05:00

Yes.

James: 05:01

We are. We hope we hope you dance too. Except no. If it's the allergy dance, Shawn, we don't hope you dance.

Mollie: 05:07

You don't wanna be invited to this party. It's

Shawn: 05:09

it's No. No. No. No. And I'm so grateful I'm not part of that little dance party.

Shawn: 05:14

I really I see my friends struggling, but no. I'm just trying to be optimistic here. Just looking trying to put on the rose colored glasses for you guys.

James: 05:25

Appreciate that.

Shawn: 05:26

Yeah. We

James: 05:26

want you to go out.

Shawn: 05:28

Yet another reason. Started. That the springtime is just not good for anybody. Yeah. You know, this weather, this back and forth, this up and down, this crazy weather that we're in, no thank you.

Shawn: 05:43

And then the allergies accompany all this. So I just, I don't get it. Don't understand.

James: 05:49

Let's let's not so fear though, Shawn. There's so much good about spring.

Shawn: 05:54

There it is. Back to dancing, James. I love that.

Mollie: 05:57

New life and resurrection all around us, friends.

Shawn: 06:01

See, we need to be a little more optimistic and less fearful, which thank you for that segue, James and Mollie. But we don't have to look far now, do we, before we begin to see a world, a culture, a religious community caught up in a lot of fear. Right? We got political fears and financial fears and immigration fears and war fears and racial fears and fears about the future and fears about making the right choices with my life and fears of God's wrath of when I get things wrong and so much more. But wait, there's more.

Shawn: 06:35

There seems to be a widespread message that we have a lot to fear these days. And I feel like young adults already have a lot of worries and concerns that they're carrying around as they look for guidance and reassurance on a number of issues, let alone belief in feeling connected to a higher power. And I think many of them would like to find that guidance from faith communities that can be, instrumental in providing space and place to grow in their faith and understanding of who God is and to make meaning of their lives. Yet, does it seem to you guys that there is an undertone of what we should be afraid of rather than how we should be engaging with how to love or show compassion or learn to forgive as values to be most concerned about? Mollie, do you see that in some faith communities?

Shawn: 07:33

That they're more driven by fear than by love, and how that impacts the young adults that you work with?

Mollie: 07:40

Yeah. That is a fantastic question. Well Unfortunately unfortunately, I do see a lot of fear in the work that I do and in the students and the individuals that I encounter. At UTM Wesley, we are trying to expand to be a young adult ministry, and so that looks like 18 to 29, and really working with young adults because they're that gap in the church that right now isn't represented in their own particular space. And so as we work through that, I'm gonna see more and more different ways that people are identifying

James: 08:13

Mhmm.

Mollie: 08:14

And struggles and conversations about faith. But I know for the context I'm in at this current moment with only college students, I I see deeply the way that they have been impacted by fear or the way they think that they should fear. I think sometimes it's not even, like, the fear itself, but the idea of should I be afraid, and that holds them back. Like, should I be afraid, or is it okay for me to take that next step? And Mhmm.

Mollie: 08:41

I know that in some spiritual realms, in some places, in some denominations, fear is a way that we've used to control people, to make them feel like these are the things that they need to follow in the way that they need to do it. And I'm really grateful that the Methodist Church doesn't fall into that theology. We don't believe in a god of fear and, a god that is coming after us with wrath. We believe in a god of grace and a god of abundant love. And so I love sharing that witness to students of, hey.

Mollie: 09:10

Like, we actually believe in a god of abundant grace, like, it's okay that we've messed up. Let's just continue to try to do it better the next time. And those nuances with people of, like, you can see their brain switches, and they're like, woah. Like, I didn't realize that, like, that also is possible. And so I am seeing it in a wide way.

Mollie: 09:30

I think also fear has been used as, like, a transaction within the church of, like, we will you will do this, and we will get this from you because fear is involved in this transaction that we're having. And so how do we move away from that? I think these are all questions to ponder as we kinda work through this together.

Shawn: 09:48

Mhmm. Good. I love I love that. You you brought up, controlling fear. You brought up the fear of God and probably that wrath that we had mentioned just a second ago.

Shawn: 09:59

And then transactional fear. Wow. There's a lot to talk about just right there. James, any of that jump out at you?

James: 10:09

Well, the first thing when we talk about fear, I do think it's a tool. It's been used as a tool of control. I mean, fear is a natural part of our evolutionary process. Fear is a good thing. Fear can be a very good thing.

James: 10:21

If you're facing a lion in the wild and if you need to get away and fear takes over, shuts down your brain, but that's what fear actually does. When we're driven to fear, the amygdala shuts down the frontal cortex. So we don't think, We no longer reason, we just respond and we either run away, flight, or we fight. And so fear is a wonderful tool of keeping us in this fight flight freeze posture rather than, let me think about what this person said, as opposed to scaring me so badly that you have me in the palm of your hand because you've made me fear this thing that now you've got a solution to fix for me. In the church, it's the fear of sin and eternal damnation, whatever the heck that looks like.

James: 11:16

And so if we can create enough fear in people scaring the hell out of people doesn't work in churches anymore. It just doesn't work. We're scared enough that we're the planet might not last. We're scared enough that there's going to be some kind of racial war if we keep dividing ourselves or some other kind of war. I mean, there's plenty of things that are real to be scared of, cataclysmic climate change.

James: 11:49

But if you can make me afraid of, tell me that the only thing to fear is my eternal situation, not my current situation here on life and what I live for my, you know, what I leave for my children, for those that come after me, then I don't focus on the things that Jesus always did. And that fear focus is never Jesus' focus. In fact, every time he talks about fear, he tells us just, you know, to not be afraid. You know, he tells us that mature love often translated as perfect love, mature love, whole love, complete love, healed love, healed faith casts out fear. You know, the the whole of love casts out fear and instead, we we like to create fear because it is a tool.

James: 12:46

I I come along with Mollie. It is a tool of control. And the problem is that we're so filled with fear now that we often live in, we never can fully rest because we're always afraid there's something that we should fear that's coming, whatever it is. Something is coming that's caused me to fear. It's some other political party.

James: 13:09

It's eternal damnation. It's people who are different than me, who believe different or look different or come from a different country or we we just are good at fear. And we're told to be afraid of not knowing the right answer when oftentimes nobody knows the right answer. What does the right answer mean? The right answer is what you think is right, but what if I don't think that's right?

James: 13:41

Okay, now I'm messing with truth. Let's not mess with truth. There is an ultimate truth. I just think as finite beings, we don't have complete access to it. So, point of being fear of being wrong, because chances are pretty good you're going to be wrong, and sometimes being wrong and failing is the best way to learn.

James: 13:59

Absolutely.

Shawn: 14:01

And I like that you drew that comparison between healthy fear and controlling fear. And so I think with the idea of, yeah, there's a there's a healthy side of fear, and and this is how it works in our lives and why we need it. And then this idea of the controlling fear. I think is what we wanna push into in this conversation. And how can we engage with that a little bit?

Shawn: 14:30

What what can we add to this conversation? And particular, particularly how can we help young adults kind of navigate these waters? And so we we already mentioned a few things, you know, that we're afraid of the stock market and economy, and we're afraid of Muslims, and we're afraid of white people. We're afraid of black people. We're afraid of the police.

Shawn: 14:54

We're afraid of the world. And so, yeah, I I think this this idea of of why are we so afraid of everything and anything that is seemingly different or hard, we have to somehow lift it up and and and hold it in a way that has nothing to do with grace or compassion or love. And so, and and and I think you alluded to this a little bit James. Fear is contagious and addictive a little bit, right? It kinda reminds me of when you were kids, and you're on a camping trip, and you start talking about like a scary story, or it's late at night.

Shawn: 15:46

And the more you talk about fear, the more fear builds up. Right? It just keeps building and building. And so you just kinda feed off of its energy, and I and I feel Fear's been around for a while, but it's just I don't know. It just it feels like it's really compounding and really becoming more pervasive in our in our culture.

Shawn: 16:08

So again, Mollie, is something that, what are conversations you're having with your young adults around this issue and what some of your thoughts on how to deal with it?

Mollie: 16:28

I think one thing that comes to mind for me, although I'm working with young adults, I myself am also a young adult. And so I can understand fully in some of their experiences. Obviously, I'm not still in college, but I'm in a master's program through seminary. And so there's some ways that I can draw parallels in my life and into their life as well. Mhmm.

Shawn: 16:46

And I think

Mollie: 16:46

something that we're not fully understanding or taking into consideration, like, as a society is the way that social media has played a huge role in, like, the fear mongering of individuals and the way that when we didn't have social media and we didn't have that media outlet with that drive at every moment that it could be at your fingertips, it was easier for people to say, okay. I'm gonna live in this specific moment in this specific place because no one can, like, get into my head right now. Like, I'm only with me. And now it's even harder to be only with yourself or to even hear your own self think at times because of the fact that we are so connected to fear on our phones, fear within workplaces. Like, it is it is just always here.

Mollie: 17:29

And so if you wanna be fearful, just take your phone, and you'll find a a reason in about one second to be fearful. And so I think that we're we've created this monster for ourselves of an epidemic of anxiety in people of, like, this high alert and this fight or flight response just constantly living within us of, like, when is the moment where I'm gonna feel that jolt of, I gotta go fight a lion. And that's just not the way we need to live life anymore. Like, we don't need to fight lions. Most of us don't.

Mollie: 17:56

I can't tell all of us. Maybe some of us do. Most of us don't fight physical lions. We don't need that instinct anymore like original animals. Like, right?

Mollie: 18:04

Like, we don't need that. So now our bodies doesn't know what to do, and so we've translated that into this, like, ongoing rise in the cortisol in our bodies, rising anxiety and fear, and just, like, this overwhelming mental health epidemic that we're experiencing. And so I think fear really starts this whole process that we're living into of social media can be with us at any time, media in general, the news. Like, there's always this movement of something we should be afraid of. And so how do we take Sabbath as resistance from the world in those ways and disconnect ourselves from what that is?

Mollie: 18:40

Because I know for me, it's super easy for me to be afraid. Super easy for me to look at my phone and be like, okay. Well, we're all gonna die in twenty minutes. So peace out everybody. Like, it's really easy for me to do that as a person.

Mollie: 18:51

And then as a minister, I have to take a moment and be like, okay. Let me model that differently outwardly to the people that I am encountering. But not all of us do that or have to change in those sorts of situations. And so when we have students that come in and they're like, my gosh. Oh my gosh.

Mollie: 19:07

This. Oh my gosh. That. I'm gonna fill my class. I'm gonna do this.

Mollie: 19:09

I'm gonna do that. I think there's a healthy level of like, okay. There's consequence. And so fear sometimes comes up in consequence. But what we're seeing right now is fear that's unassisted and just lives in our bodies.

Mollie: 19:22

And I can say as an individual that fear just lives in me naturally right now. It's just like a constant state of that. And that's something I'm meditating through and working through and praying through and doing all the things that I've been on a long journey, different medications, helping me, all the things, therapy, you name it. I've definitely done it to help with that. And I don't think, unfortunately, that I'm the only person.

Mollie: 19:42

I think a lot of people are having this problem and are having this this switch in their brains that they just can't flip back to calm. And so how do we how do we figure that out? How do we do that as a society to make society better for people? And I don't know what the answer is, but I can definitely pose the question.

James: 20:01

Fear steals the future from us. I think that when we live in fear, we can't think of anything except the thing about which we are afraid. Instead of and so it paralyzes. It either white flights or freezes us. And so engaging the world and and saying, listen, there may be cataclysmic disaster coming, whatever it is, climate, you name it, some kind of cataclysmic disaster.

James: 20:33

But it isn't here yet. So rather than live in the future where that fear may become a reality, what would it look like if I lived right now, not in the fear, but if I lived right now and did what I can do the best because each one of us, we've talked about this before and this is my kind of position on the world is all of us are offered a post that we can stand. Our particular gifts, our preciousness, our being unconditionally loved exactly as we are is a gift to the world and our job is not to we live in fear, but if we can let go of the fear to stand our post and do what is ours to do. I often find myself trying to fix all of these things, most of which I can't they're not in my they're not my post.

Shawn: 21:23

Right.

James: 21:23

I can't fix all of those, and I'm immediately overwhelmed by the fear of not being able to fix everything. When if I could learn to be in this moment, not paralyzed by a future fear, may be alerted to a future thing that would not be good, but let that empower me to now not live in fear, but to work for a different kind of future that begins right now. Fear steals us, steals the future from us.

Shawn: 21:55

A 100% agree with that. And I think another way to also deal with that too is to confront some of this, the the paralyzation that fear brings, is to confront it with the truth, which for me, the truth is like, how can I live in this moment and love someone? How can I be in this moment and demonstrate, humility, or compassion? What are the what are the fruits of the spirit that are coming out in me in this moment where I'm paralyzed or that I am so shaken? What's coming out of me?

Shawn: 22:35

Yeah. And and I just find that in, in the in the in the Christian narrative, boy, there are some really good opportunities for us that have been laid out by this guy named Jesus who is like, hey, you know, when you see this stranger that you're supposed to hate over here who's suffering,

James: 23:00

I want you to go

Shawn: 23:01

help that person. And I find that very empowering. So what are ways that I can engage in this situation? And I think that we can learn a lot. Or the church, religious institutions have such a prime opportunity to share some of these teachings that can turn the fear narrative on its head.

Shawn: 23:28

Mhmm. I was recently reading an article and it's by a guy named Paul Prather. He's writing for an organization called Religion Unplugged. His article is entitled Some Churches Are Driven by Fear, Others by Love. And he's quoting this journalist, his name is David French from the New York Times.

Shawn: 23:58

And David French says, when I talk to Christians who are struggling with their faith, one of the first things I ask them is, were you raised in a fear the world church or a love your neighbor church? And I find I thought that was a really compelling question. James, like, you hear that. Like, as a as a pastor, how does that excite you? How does that motivate you?

Shawn: 24:26

How does that like, oh my goodness. Like here's something that is a great question for a lot of people to help them maybe define the fear in their life and where they're coming from.

James: 24:39

Well, have to say Shawn, I really appreciate that particular perspective. I did not read that either the New York Times article or the particular piece that you mentioned, but I do think that we, many people I come from a love your neighbor church. I grew up in a love your neighbor church, not a fear the world church. I don't think I ever heard fear the world growing up, but I had all these friends who had the fear of the world kind of way to look at the world and I never understood it completely. And now I appreciate it in a whole new way.

James: 25:15

You've given me a whole new set of categories to help understand where people come from. I know that the gospel as a pastor that I get to preach, I get to shape the gospel story that my congregation, every congregation I've served for however long they had me, got to hear the gospel interpretation from me. They don't have to buy what I say, but I can shape the words that I talk about and I can focus on a gospel that I understand, which is the gospel of love your neighbor. The neighbor that looks like you, the neighbor that doesn't look like you, the neighbor that's gendered like you, the one that isn't, the one that has a sexual orientation that's the same as yours, one that isn't. You know, to love all the neighbors.

James: 26:03

And I get to shape that message and make sure that I don't speak from a place of fear. And I get to listen to people who come to my office and talk about the message of fear. Fear that they're not doing things the right way. Fear that that that'll get them in trouble with God because they're not absolutely sure or they don't feel the assurance that John Wesley told us was something we should just, you know, he felt his heart strangely warmed and he had assurance and he said that we should all feel assured of our salvation, whatever that means. And what if I don't feel that assurance?

James: 26:48

Does that mean I'm not I don't have faith? And you know, you get to talk to people whose fears are such that they recognize there is a consequence to what they believe and how that belief comes out in action. And so I tried to reframe fear in a way that I appreciate that you take seriously this life of faith. You don't have to be afraid. What I hear you saying is it's not so much a fear thing, it's a seriousness.

James: 27:19

You want to be sure you're following this Jesus guy that you believe in and I do and you believe in his path, you want to be following him as closely as possible. The best you've got is to do the best you can following that path and trust in God's grace. And it's not about fear, it's about being serious about it. And knowing that being serious means that sometimes you're going to get way too serious about it. And you know, when you get way too serious, you're going to not feel good about yourself or anybody else in the world because you have taken something way too far.

James: 27:54

And Jesus was pretty good if somebody took something way too far to bring it back in. Bring it back in. Bring it

Shawn: 28:02

back Yeah.

James: 28:05

I find that idea that there's probably in between churches too. Don't eitheror is always a tough way to go, that dualism. But I do think you can lean in the direction of the fear of the world church, or you can lean in the direction of love the neighbor. And if I look at the life of Jesus, love the neighbor seems to be what he's all about over and over and over again. You have to look really hard and take a few things out of context to make it a fear of the world.

James: 28:39

Now, Paul, you can take Paul everywhere you want to go and maybe have a fear of the world. But Paul and Jesus are not the same people. Guess what? We don't worship Paul. Even Paul said we don't worship Paul.

James: 28:52

That's another discussion for another day.

Shawn: 28:55

So what I hear in all of that too is that there's been a narrative that I think that has been created through the fear of the world mentality. And that is, well, now there's a them. And we need to fear them. We can't be around them. We they have these, anti God kind of views.

Shawn: 29:19

We don't agree with them. And so now these folks are set apart. They're, it's almost like there's a wall that goes up that now we can't have relationship with them because of what they believe or how they live their life. And we don't want to associate with that because we're trying to live the way that we see God wants us to live. And these other folks are just going to pull us away from God.

Shawn: 29:51

There's some sort of weird agenda to try to like either destroy God or destroy the church or, you know, it can get kind of, you know, silly, but it's a very real fear of them. And yet, when I look at scripture, I see Jesus walking right through the wall to them, and sitting with them and eating with them and getting to know them and being like, you know what? I don't care what you say or how you live your life or what's going on with you. I'm still gonna sit right here, and I'm gonna I'm gonna show you genuine love. You know, I think of the the story of the woman who was about to get, rocks thrown on her because she was caught in adultery.

Shawn: 30:37

You know, there's a them person. We don't wanna be associated with them. In fact, we've got to take the sinner and cast them out and destroy it and you know, be done with it.

Mollie: 30:46

Also, where's the man in that situation? It's only the woman. Oh,

James: 30:50

Mollie. Come on. You

Shawn: 30:54

just have to say that because you're the only female in the show.

Mollie: 30:56

I do. It's so valid, though. Why was he not getting stoned?

Shawn: 31:00

So but that's what I'm saying. Like, and Jesus sat with her, with them, and, you know, was able to to not feel threatened by it. And I feel like there's so many in the church that feel threatened by people who just don't believe the way that they believe or believe exactly what they think should be believed by God. And so, and and that just raises the fear level that much more. Mollie, we're gonna go on a break, but when we come back, I wanna pose the same question to you as far as were you part of a fear of the world kind of church, or were you more of the love the neighbor church?

Shawn: 31:38

So don't go away. We'll be right back.

Ad: 31:44

We're grateful to Infinitely Precious LLC for sponsoring this episode. If you're looking for a quiet companion for your spiritual journey, check out the Infinitely Precious podcast where we practice showing up to life with presence, honesty, and compassion.

Shawn: 32:02

And welcome back to the second half of this episode of Spiritual Night Religious where we are talking about fear and the pervasive gospel of fear that we seem to be seeing in a lot of faith communities. And when we last left off, we were about to ask Mollie, was she raised in a fear the world kind of church, or was she raised in a love your neighbor kind of church? And how does she see that that kind of question is helpful with working with young adults?

Mollie: 32:39

I was raised in a Catholic church is how I grew up. And so I think I was too young to, like, fully be able to live into and remember, like, what I was truly taught. I know a lot of things in the Catholic church were more doctrine, and that just didn't really, fit the person that I was at that time as a young person. And so eventually, when we moved up to the Methodist Church, that was very love your neighbor centric, very, like, outreach. Mission became something that was super important to me.

Mollie: 33:13

We had been talking about this earlier, but I did some work with the Appalachia Service Project. I went on that trip as a youth for five years before I joined their staff. We'd go to DC and Philly and feed individuals that were unhoused and a lot of a lot of words about loving your neighbor, but then followed by actions of loving your neighbor. And I think that that's the different type we can say we love our neighbor, but then the actions, if those don't happen, then I think that those are truly just words, and we're not living into the kingdom of god in the best way that we can. So I was grateful for that opportunity to go to those places, see things that were different, and love people that were different from me, and I was always taught that.

Mollie: 33:52

And my parents growing up were always, always, always, like, you treat the janitor the same as you treat the CEO. Like, there's no difference. You treat all people the same. You treat everyone with kindness. That is just the way that we live, and that's how I grew up.

Mollie: 34:07

So I didn't understand at first that other people grew up differently, that they didn't love their neighbor, and they didn't care about people in the same way I did. I remember having conversation with my mom when I first moved, to Tennessee, and I said, you know, mom? I don't know if I'm like different or special or what's going on but like, I have this deep well for like compassion and empathy and unfortunately, like, I'm just not seeing that reflected in the world around me.

James: 34:34

Mhmm.

Mollie: 34:35

And I think that that was such a reminder to me of, like, the way that we are raised, what we are told as young people is really important as to who we become when we're older. And so I take that with me now because I'm lucky to have that deep well of empathy that I can share that with other people and remind them that that's a place that we can also reside. But with all that being said, I'm seeing in my young people a deep well of empathy, but a really hard time of figuring out how to put that into words, how to not let fear get in the way of the empathy that they have. I think a lot of students are like, hey. I wanna do this good thing.

Mollie: 35:14

I wanna go out and help people that are different from me. I wanna love my neighbor, but I'm afraid to because, or I'm nervous to because or I have anxiety about this because. And usually, the because that is a part of that has something to do with the perception of others. In that experience. And that hurts me because I think that says something about our world and how we treat people who treat others well.

Mollie: 35:39

I think we're afraid to love people well because there's moments where people don't take it as kindness or they think that we're being something that we're not. There's so many layers on this, and living in the bible Belt, living in the South has been a really new thing for me. And I've loved it, but there's also been moments of, like, southern hospitality where people are really kind to your face, and then there's, like, a different conversation that happens later. And so how do we hold both of those things in truth? So that was what I would say about that topic.

Shawn: 36:09

I like that. And you bring up this really interesting concept that I think maybe many faith communities seem to find themselves in. And that this perception of others. Yeah. And that they don't trust who they don't know or what they don't know or if it's different.

Shawn: 36:31

That tends to become a problem. And we don't have to look far for examples for that. Just racism in the South. I think there's a huge piece that we can look at.

Mollie: 36:49

Is still a huge piece unfortunately.

Shawn: 36:51

Exactly. We're still kind of in this you know fear of them. And it's it's it's I find that just so interesting. Kind of going back to this article where David French of the New York Times is quoted. David says that the culture of the church of fear is unmistakable.

Shawn: 37:19

You're taught to view the secular world as fundamentally a threat. Mhmm. And I and I I see that. It's like, oh, no. It's they're the bad guys.

Shawn: 37:29

Secular friends are dangerous. Secular education is perilous. Secular ideas are bankrupt. And you're always taught to prepare for the coming persecution when, quote, they are going to try to destroy the church. Then there's that theythem kind of thing going on again.

Shawn: 37:46

And he says a church based in love is different. It's so different that it can sometimes feel like a different faith entirely. The distinction begins with the initial posture toward the world. Not as a threat to be engaged, but as a community that we should love and serve. And so how how can we change perspective on this?

Shawn: 38:12

Because sometimes I I I ask myself this, and when I'm talking to my wife, Melissa, we both sort of look at each other and say, are we reading the same Bible? Are we reading the same words? Yeah. Because sometimes it just feels like, how how did you get there when it says this? Yeah.

Shawn: 38:30

Does that does that make sense, Mollie?

Mollie: 38:32

A thousand percent. Yes. That is that is something I struggle with daily and something sometimes I just have to remind myself, like, individuals in my midst in this place did not they were not raised by the same parents as me. They were not raised by the same family, upbringing. They didn't have the same experience as me.

Mollie: 38:50

They didn't get to go to different places that I got to go and see the world the way that I did.

Shawn: 38:54

Mhmm.

Mollie: 38:55

And so they don't have the same vision of what it is to be us. And I think when you say them, like, whoever them is, whoever they are. I was like, wait. That doesn't make sense. Whoever they are in this scenario, the other, I think we have to be careful because, like, we can so easily become them.

Shawn: 39:17

Well, sure. Yeah. Eventually, it does circle back around.

Mollie: 39:20

Exactly. And so that is, like, a huge thing that I am really trying to talk about with my students of, like, we can be so inclusive that we're exclusive. We can be so about wanting all people to be welcomed that in some way we almost alienate people who don't feel as though that they can be in those spaces. Like, it's really hard for an us to happen, but I think that that's what needs to happen. Like, we need to have a posture of us.

Mollie: 39:47

We are just us. We are just people. We are just living. We're all just doing our best. Yeah.

Mollie: 39:53

And I don't know if that makes me naive, but I just I just wish that this was what more people thought.

Shawn: 39:59

Right. Just this conversation right now reminds me of, someone that you may or may not know of, but definitely check him out if this is the first time you're hearing about a guy named Shane Claiborne.

Mollie: 40:10

Love him.

Shawn: 40:11

And he, you got some thoughts, don't you?

Mollie: 40:15

I do.

Shawn: 40:16

He's got a really interesting story of a guy who grew up in East Tennessee, grew up going to church and ended up kind of really struggling with the way the church was behaving. And the words of Jesus didn't seem to line up very well. And he one of his more infamous quotes is, how can we worship a man on Sunday? How can we worship a homeless man on Sunday and walk past one on Monday? And again, just another small fraction of people that could fall under the category of them.

Shawn: 40:57

We don't need to do anything with the homeless because well, they've got all these issues. They're dangerous. They smell. They're not worth my time and attention, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. We need to fear them, lock the doors as we go downtown.

Shawn: 41:13

And so there's that example. Yeah, check out his book, The Irresistible Revolution That's by Shane good But you know, again I think at the core, the fear of the world, it's it's it's also could be inclusive of the fear of God, of hell, of losing your faith, of being caught out by other believers and of the church leaders. And it's just Arthur, Mr. Prather said that when we live in a fear, or when we live in fear, we eventually come to hate something or somebody, maybe even ourselves. And that's the kind of circle that we talked about.

Shawn: 42:01

Like we just, it ends up separating us from them. And when, we see in Jesus, relationship at the core of everything being taught, fear destroys that, completely removes that. Yeah.

James: 42:21

It's our survival instinct. I think tribalism was, you know, as human beings evolved into, you know, we became tribal groups because we found out it was much easier than living in pairs or small groups. The larger the group, the better we more likely we were to be able to get do enough hunting, enough gathering, enough sharing. And so survival of the tribe became very important. And I think it's still wired into our evolutionary brains at the bottom, somewhere in there, that our tribe really matters.

James: 42:57

So if we teach that this, our tribe is the tribe with the answer, and you have to fear all the other tribes because they want to steal your answers from you and water you down, pollute you, that whole tribalism comes right to the front. It becomes easy to fear because survival is based on protecting my tribe and protecting my way of seeing the world because that way is the right way, at least from my perspective. And so I must protect that at all costs. Survival used to be about the lion, something physical, and survival now has become about I need to belong to a tribe. And if somebody attacks the ideas that are the foundation of the tribe, then they're attacking something that enables my survival, that empowers my survival.

James: 43:53

So I must fight back or run away from being in contact with them. An interesting thing that occurred to me as we've been talking about fear, because we, particularly the Hebrew Bible talks about fearing God, but what's important for us to understand is fear is only one way to translate the word that refers to fear. Awe, wonder

Shawn: 44:17

Reverence, respect.

James: 44:18

Right, mystery. When we stand in awe of God as opposed to fear of God, it is a whole different thing. When we recognize that we're not supposed to be afraid of God, although if I can make you afraid enough and then offer you the antidote that only I have to give you, then I have power. So if I can, instead of say fear, if you stand in absolute awe of this universe that we live in and you wonder what's behind it all, what is that piece that holds this beautiful field together? And then you begin to say, you know, there is something behind this spirit, mystery, grace, power, love.

James: 45:09

My favorite, well, maybe not my favorite, but close to my favorite twentieth century mystic, Pierre Thier Deschardin, believed that the very foundational pieces of what make the universe is love. That love is the relational aspect of all things. It is the ground of our being. And so it is the fire that burns within all matter and all absence of matter that holds us together in a relational piece. And I buy that whole

Shawn: 45:41

Berkeley. Absolutely.

James: 45:46

I don't know if that had anything to do with fear. I think I went off on a tangent.

Shawn: 45:49

No, that was great. No, we love that.

James: 45:52

As Sean warned you at the beginning of the, you know, Spiritual, Not Religious podcast, James does sometimes take us on a Primrose path that he is not, doesn't even have an end.

Shawn: 46:04

And we go willingly, and it's great. I love that. And what you had just mentioned though, James, it also, ties in I think really nicely with another quote that I want to throw at you. I feel like I'm just quoting this whole podcast right now. But, again, our our good friend David French says, we live in a time of great anger.

Shawn: 46:27

We live in a time of great pain. And everywhere we look, we seem to see people of faith stoking anger and inflicting pain. But a resurrection church that follows a resurrected savior should be a balm, not a blowtorch. Its default posture towards difference isn't suspicion, but affection. And I just thought I just thought that was so dead on of what we're trying to, convey, particularly to young adults, like this is what we need to be.

Shawn: 47:03

This is the kind of faith community that we're trying to lean into. I work for, a nonprofit organization that, helps folks who are struggling to repair their homes or build new homes that they've lost in natural disasters, to help them get their homes back in order free of charge. And so it doesn't matter who they are, or what's going on in their life, or what they've done, or anything. It's just we're there to provide this a balm, and at no charge to them. And I feel like it's such a meaningful experience for a lot of people because it's like it's living into these teachings that we find in the Gospels as such a tangible way to embrace making a difference in someone else's life.

Shawn: 47:58

And it takes away the suspicion, it takes away the fear that we've been talking about. And so, yeah, I just, I really appreciated the way that French had explained that.

James: 48:16

Well, the organization for which you work, Shawn, and which all three of us love is also based not on just repairing homes, but building relationships while the homes are repaired. So not only is the reparation to make a house warmer, safer and drier to borrow some words, but is also to work on the fragmented relationships we live in in this world and to demythologize who people in Appalachia are. They're real people just like anybody else. And the people who come from elsewhere who love those people, love their houses, and help them with warmer, safer, dryer also walk away from that with a better relationship with the larger world. It is a beautiful, powerful experience.

James: 49:07

It's a lot like Kintsugi pottery that's put back together.

Shawn: 49:12

Ah, there it is.

James: 49:13

Beautiful, beautiful way. You can still see the fractures, but it is now a beautiful piece of artwork that is put back together. You can't see my Kintsugi pottery if you're listening online, but I'm holding it in my hand. There you go.

Shawn: 49:29

Well, hopefully one day we will be on YouTube and everyone can see what you just did.

James: 49:36

Hopefully.

Shawn: 49:41

Now that's a beautiful example right there. Yeah. Wow, guys. What else do we have here? And I think again as we look to steer this conversation into okay, well what are some tangible things that I can do instead of falling into the trap of of being fearful, and being suspicious of others, what can I do?

Shawn: 50:08

And there's a pastor out in Texas. His name is Bob Roberts Jr. And he says that God recognizes love because God is love. And we're made in the image of God. And that goes to the essence, not necessarily our biology, but our spiritual essence.

Shawn: 50:26

And our behavior shows origin more than anything. And so does love flow out of me. Mhmm. It says that Jesus didn't whip people up in a frenzy through fear. He healed them.

Shawn: 50:39

He called them, and he calmed them in love. And so, I I think that we we have to combat fear, first and foremost, with the way that, one, we love ourselves, and two, the way we love the other person. That person. Just your closest friends or the people that you trust the most. You have to really push yourself out of the, I guess the safety net that you might find yourself in.

Shawn: 51:10

And push yourself into how can I love someone that I disagree with, I fundamentally disagree with? Or someone that maybe they have hurt you in some way. Not to say that you should go and be their best friend and that everything should be fine and that you can love them no matter what. But how can we remove the stigma? How can we remove the issues that might be causing these walls to go up?

Shawn: 51:40

And I think it for this, it starts with love, at least. What do you guys think?

James: 51:46

I would say just one of the things that I find helpful for me, and that is to recognize when fear is rising in me. Because if you're attentive enough to where you are, when somebody is saying something or I'm seeing something and I begin to feel, I know what fear feels like in my body. My body is it the it's it's one of his jobs is as a warning mechanism and something is causing fear. I can feel it. My belly tightens.

James: 52:15

You know, my heart starts racing. My my breath changes. If I can catch that early enough and pay attention enough to my body, I recognize that is coming, that this is fear. This is fear that's rising. I don't have to choose to engage this fear.

James: 52:33

I do not have to act on this fear. Now, sometimes the thing to do is to act on fear. Somebody's coming at you that wants to take your stuff, turn around, run away. You know, or drop your stuff and leave it for him. I don't know.

James: 52:46

But most of the time, the things that we're fearful of may or may not have any basis in reality. So where is this fear coming from? Is this the four year old me who was afraid of the boogeyman? And can I recognize this? Where does it come from?

James: 53:11

It doesn't get fixed overnight. I'm not saying be aware of it and it's all right. Sometimes it requires therapy and other kinds of things to figure out what our fears are. But if we can just be aware when the fear is rising, or if we go to church and we hear the preacher preaching something that is designed to make us fearful and we feel the fear, we can do a couple of things. We can say, I don't know if I can buy this fearful thing.

James: 53:38

You can talk to the pastor after worship if you're courageous and want to take that risk, or you can say, maybe this church isn't for me because this is eliciting fear. And the Jesus I know, that boy is not about fear. And so I think being aware when fear rises, because if it's all the time, if we can catch it before it gets hold of us and starts the adrenaline pumping and ultimately the cortisol that fills our body and exhausts us all the time. Catch it and let it go. Pay attention through breathing, through meditation, through other things.

James: 54:18

I do think fear is natural. It's part of who we are. It's survival. But some fears are not really necessary. They aren't things we need to be afraid of.

James: 54:31

They're created for control. So pay attention. I guess that's what I'm saying. That's a way to deal with fear. I think Shawn, you're absolutely right.

James: 54:40

It begins in love, but I think awareness is also a piece of it. What about you, Mollie? What do you think?

Mollie: 54:48

I think when we talk about love, we have to careful because I think some people think that they're acting out of love, but they're actually acting out of fear. Because I think love and fear can be really close to each other in the way that we interpret it and the way that we have understood it in our life. If we have a parental figure in our life who we've learned to love through fear, we're gonna think that that is how we love. And so I think we also have to remind people and show them, like, this is the love that Jesus is reminding us of. Is this the love that you've experienced?

Mollie: 55:19

What does that look like for you? How can we help you understand that? If we are close to someone and we're living in community with them or we're in community with them in any capacity and we're seeing that happen. Because I think also part of what we've been experiencing is people who think they're loving and they're actually harming. And that's something that as a society we have to work through.

Mollie: 55:38

But I appreciate what you said, James, and I think a lot bubbles up for me when you talk about that.

Shawn: 55:45

Can can you speak just a little bit more to that, Mollie, trying to understand how people might use love, but yet it comes across as fear?

Mollie: 55:54

So it would more be the other way around. So they use fear, but it comes they think it's coming across as love.

Shawn: 56:00

Okay.

Mollie: 56:01

And so I think for me, that comes more in the transactional love or the transactional fear experience, and that looks like

Shawn: 56:07

Oh, I see what you're saying.

Mollie: 56:08

If you're you're using it in a way to say, well, I love you. That's why you're doing it, but it's not. It's because you wanna control them because you have fear. So if you were, you know, if you thought love was fear in your life, if you have an unhealthy relationship, that fear is the way that you've seen love, you're gonna love people out of fear instead of loving them in the way that true divine love that comes from god is supposed to be. And so part of my work, I feel like as a minister in this space with young people is to have conversations about, like, is the love that you're giving, like, true authentic Christ like love, or is that love coming from a space of fear, of anxiety, of depression?

Mollie: 56:48

Like, where is that fear coming from? Because or where is that love coming from? Sorry. Because I think that's important to know and name. This is where my love comes from.

Shawn: 56:57

Yeah. Yeah. And I also think that and love isn't not is not something that comes across as well we're not taking fear or sin seriously. No, no. And I think quite the opposite is true.

Shawn: 57:15

Because the Christian message also mentions that hey, there's real issues out there. There's real sin. There's real evil present. Absolutely. And so how do we not be afraid of that though?

Shawn: 57:31

And paralyze us like we had talked about earlier. And so trying to find ways in which the love which is demonstrated to us through the person of Jesus, I think is a great starting place. Like when you're looking to define love anyway, start there. And maybe check yourself if you think that maybe your type of love might be a little more fear based. Is it how the love of Christ was demonstrated?

Shawn: 58:04

We see John three sixteen but also John three seventeen says Jesus didn't come to condemn the world, right? I think there's some freedom in that. There at least is for me. And so, but I think there's some really great ways for us to face these fears moving forward. I think being able to, embrace new ideas and encouraging people to think beyond what they already know.

Shawn: 58:39

Casting faith and hope wherever you go, maybe holding future as a friend, not something to be afraid of. And and again, I I I go back to this idea of, you know, what was your experience potentially growing up around a faith community? Were you scared out of hell or were you loved out of hell kind of thing? And so I think that that kind of shapes and frames our perspectives. And so maybe doing a little bit of self questioning of, okay, all right, what is my background?

Shawn: 59:20

Where do I come from? How was I formed? But how can I now look to change some of these perspectives moving forward?

James: 59:28

Well, and I think you brought up a very loaded word in today's world because we don't use it much and some people say we should use it more. But I think it, and that's the word sin. What does it mean? Because for most people, when I say sin, they're talking about is moral Moral failure. It's all about moral failure.

James: 59:49

But I think anything that fragments our relationship with one another, the world and God is what I might define as, so I would wanna say it's a disharmony with God and the way to the far side is to reattune ourselves, to not forget. The Lord's Prayer, don't let us fall into forgetfulness. It's not lead us not into temptation. It's don't let us fall into forgetfulness. Forgetting who we are, forget who made us, forgetting how connected we are to each other because when we forget who we are, that's when there's fragmentation.

James: 01:00:29

That's when the universe starts to come apart. And when I think of sin, it's not just moral depravity, which is what seems to be what we think about when we think of sin. It is anything that denigrates myself as a human or anyone else or the world itself or God in any way that fragments this wonderful relational field we find ourselves a part of that God has made and lives in and lives apart from and is not the same as, but is also, you know, inhabits because of the mystery of it all, that there is a way to get back into harmony and to recognize I'm forgetting who I am is to also come back into a kind of we are always in the process of ripening or unripening. And I think God wants us to ripen into a fuller relationship. I mean, all plants, it takes time.

James: 01:01:31

You don't plant an apple tree and the apple comes immediately. It takes time and watering and sun and all those things. So, I do think we have to be careful with the word sin only because we have to be sure when you're talking about it, what you're defining it as. Because it has a nebulous feel to it. It has a very negative feel.

James: 01:01:52

Nothing wrong with negativity. There are things we should not do. There are some lists in the Bible. But there are also some things that we have to be careful to recognize that the fragmentation of this beautiful thing that we're a part of that god has made us to be a part of, that we fit into, that we add to. It matters what we do.

James: 01:02:19

It matters whether we contribute or take from what the world has to offer. Sorry.

Shawn: 01:02:27

No, no, and I appreciate that because I think there's, that's a whole another podcast right there, James. Thanks for another idea for our podcast. And that is there are so many concepts in the Gospel narratives, the Biblical narrative, that I think definitely need a little more time and attention placed into them. Because we can get into a very black and white reading, a very Western mindset reading of that, and that can really lead to some, negative consequences unfortunately, which also play into this concept of fear. Yeah.

Shawn: 01:03:00

And so

James: 01:03:00

You're right on, John. This was a great topic that you brought to us.

Shawn: 01:03:04

Well, I was afraid you weren't gonna say anything, but no, you did. So they went that. Hey, listen, we are so glad you guys, are with us. We're going to, sign off. But first, Mollie is going to let you guys know how you can reach out because we would really love to hear your thoughts and feedback, your questions, your raised fists, or your gentle hearts of love and agreement with us.

Shawn: 01:03:34

Whatever it is, we want you to reach out to us. Mollie, how can they do that?

Mollie: 01:03:38

Absolutely. Friends, you can reach out to us on Instagram at spiritual dot naught underscore religious podcast. And then you can reach out to us on Gmail at spiritualnotreligiouspodcast@Gmail.com, and we hope to hear from you.

Shawn: 01:03:55

Awesome. James and Mollie, you have any final parting words as we close-up this episode? Mollie, we'll start with you. What you got? Oh, how about we go to James?

James: 01:04:13

I would say, do not fear that you are defined by your worst moments, but instead remember that you are always and everywhere infinitely precious and unconditionally loved for the gift you already are.

Shawn: 01:04:32

And I appreciate that. And on behalf of Mollie and James and myself, we appreciate you listening in and look forward to connecting with you guys soon. And, share us with your friends, and, we will see you on the next episode. God bless.