Spiritual, Not Religious

Hey, y'all. Welcome to Spiritual, Not Religious. This is a podcast for young adults that explores the intricacies of God's kingdom and the modern world.

Well, hey, friends, and welcome back to another episode of Spiritual, Not Religious. I'm your host, Shawn Winburn, and I am joined by two of the most incredible people you will ever meet in your life. You're welcome. My good friends and wonderful co hosts, James Henry and Mollie June Miller Bachman. And on behalf of the three of us, we are blessed and grateful that you're listening in and hope that this podcast is in some small way helpful in your journey into all things spiritual, not religious.

And an appreciation to our listeners, We do wanna give a shout out. And James, will you take the lead on this one to one of our faithful listeners?

One of our faithful listeners is an amazing, brilliant person. Her name is Melisa Miller Winburn. And yes, she is married to Shawn. And the reason I'm going to shout out is because she is married to Shawn, but she is one of the most capable people I have ever met. And you wouldn't want to meet someone with more personality, more charm.

She charmed me right into a job without me even realizing that's what was happening in life.

Me too.

She

is an amazing person and I'm so delightful she is in my life and that she listens religiously to the Spiritual, Not Religious podcast. Hey, Lisa.

That's right. We love all of our listeners equally. Maybe True. More than others. Awesome.

Yeah. Hey, listen. We are just so blessed by all of our listeners, particularly, and on this case, Melissa. And in this episode, we want to get a bit vulnerable with you and talk about, you might have guessed it, being vulnerable. And before you roll your eyes and think this isn't a topic for you because you have no place for weakness in your life, give us a chance to change your mind.

Vulnerability is such a unique and fascinating aspect of who each of us is, and yet many of us are afraid to go there and feel like we can be truly genuine and authentic in spite of possible perceived risks of opening up and being real. Being vulnerable in everyday life could be intimidating enough, But what about when it comes to matters of opening up in a faith community? Where you might think that would be the most appropriate space for expressing vulnerable weak points in our lives. And of course, this brings up questions of who do you trust in these kinds of moments? And again, should our faith communities and leaders be the ones to trust here?

Vulnerability is something that many young and emerging adults characterize as a high value that leads to authenticity and genuine living. These same young adults seem to find vulnerability in many of the social contexts in their everyday life, except it seems in places like faith communities or churches or religious institutions where they may feel a bit out of place or not made to feel safe to open up. When was the last time you felt like you could be truly vulnerable in a faith setting? Or is going to church, to a church setting, a place you may feel like you need to put on a different persona in order to align with those expectations of that faith community? We wanna dive into this and so much more and hope you can send us your thoughts about your comfort level and being vulnerable in the faith community.

James and Mollie, so let's, catch us up on everything going on in your world. Mollie, what is happening?

Yeah. Hey, friends. Things are good. My husband and I, Baker, have been grinding through life. You know?

He's a pastor. I work

grind on.

Got it. Absolutely. I work at a Wesley Foundation, which is a connection ministry, and so there's just a lot in our world that's changing and moving in a really good way within the church, and we're excited about what that's gonna look like in the future. We will be going on a trip soon, so we're excited about that. A little vacation.

Mhmm.

Spring break comes up next week, which is very exciting, so we can have some good time off. And I just got back from Austin, Texas because I was there for school. So there's a lot of moving pieces, but I'm doing good and I'm happy to be here. What about you, James?

I'm doing well and I'm glad to be here as well. Life is, I think for all of us, can be chaotic and busy and it's chaotic and busy a little bit right now. But in good ways, generally, I would have to say life is going pretty well. My work is busy. I'm still learning.

I'm only eight months into a new appointment. And I'm still learning the ropes. They've been very welcoming and receptive and encouraging, but lots of things to be on top of. And I always feel like I'm just one item too far not done on my to do list. But that is that's just the way life is.

And so I roll with the chaos and trust God will be with me in the midst of the foxholes I trip into. So how about you, Shawn? How are you?

Hey, listen. You know, I'm too blessed to be stressed. Know, I've got all life's questions solved, the riddles answered. So I'm doing great. So I speak can't but I'm doing great other than that.

I can't formulate words anymore. But things are these are great in my life. So not doing doing pretty good. Know, I work a great job. I'm around phenomenal people.

And I get to do a podcast with you two remarkable folks. So like it, it's pretty blessed. I feel pretty good about things. So it's good. It's good.

I am ready for the spring to

Yeah.

You know, get out and out of here. I'm ready for some warm. I'm ready for some like consistent warmth. Not this up and down roller coaster. We had you know almost 80 degrees yesterday.

It's literally snowing outside my house right now. So I'm just kind of like over it. That's me though. Hey listen, the flowers are pretty though. It's nice.

I like it. So, I am excited to have this conversation with you guys around vulnerability. I've got a lot of thoughts on this one but when you guys when I was talking to you about starting this podcast around the subject, what kind of what was one of the first things that popped up in your mind when we were talking about being vulnerable in a faith context, particularly as it relates to young adults. Did anything kind of just jump right out to you? And I'm putting you on the spotlight right away.

When I was a young adult, and there was a time when I was a young adult, I happened to be in a church community. I had taken a break from ministry. I had, you know, been in ministry, left seminary, left ministry for a short period of time, about three year window. And I went to this church and sat down with the pastor to talk about some things. And I found that being vulnerable in the particular setting I chose to because I'm United Methodist, but I was going to a different church because, you know, of the fact that I had stepped away from United Methodism, had these mixed feelings about that.

So when I went to go and talk to somebody in another denomination, I found that they sort of shamed me for some of the choices I had made in my life. And I found that being vulnerable was at that time a bad idea. And this was a clergy person, an ordained person. So Right. I could really identify with a person feeling like it is not a safe place to share vulnerability.

Was the first thought that came to my mind when you said vulnerability and particularly within religious institutions. Now, I'd like to believe I certainly, you can come in and talk to me about anything in my office, or if we're out on runs, if I'm your chaplain on ASP, but which I won't be this year, not at all. If I was, I would like to believe it's a safe space. But there are clergy I know who I would I'm not sure. It's always the case.

So it is possible. I understand young people, though I'm an older person, that it can be a hard place to be vulnerable. Yeah. What about you, Mollie? What came to your Yeah.

I think I think what rises for me and especially after hearing James say that is the idea of vulnerability and harm, like how those can run parallel, unfortunately. Often, we've had vulnerable moments within the church or in other spaces, and harm has been done indirectly, or maybe it wasn't even on purpose, but it it happened regardless. And so even if we don't mean to cause harm, harm is still caused. And so vulnerability sometimes and in some people's lives takes this idea that, like, well, if I let someone see the real me, see inside of me, understand me, then they may use that as a weapon later in my life or in that moment, they may use it as a weapon. And so when we talk about vulnerability, it's okay to think, okay, I could be hurt from this, hold you back from being able to see how beautiful it can be to release that to a place that is able to hold that space for you.

Mhmm. Yeah. And we're gonna get into, like, what does it look like to have a safe space for people that we can trust to be vulnerable with? And I'm a little bit in the camp with James. I can't remember a time growing up in the church that I felt like I could ever be vulnerable.

Because I always thought that the folks at church were the folks that had figured things out. And it just always felt like everyone was in a really good place in their life. You know, people would ask you, How are you doing? I'm great. I'm blessed.

And no one ever really seemed to give an answer other than that. So it just always felt like when you came to church, everyone was doing good. Everyone was happy to be there. That there really wasn't anything different going on. We were just there to worship and just everyone just was smiling and just too blessed to be stressed, like I said earlier.

It just it seemed like you could never really truly be yourself or authentic. If you were struggling with something, well, you just needed to keep that to yourself and then just kind of appear like you had this superficial facade going on. So you wouldn't stand out a whole lot, right? And so you just didn't want to risk a whole lot. And my hope is that a lot has changed since this has always felt like this.

I don't know how long that would be but James has certainly felt that. I felt that. Mollie, I'm assuming that maybe you had some experiences around this.

Yeah.

In a faith community, this idea that people feel like they in order to go to a faith community or religious institution, you kind of have to put on a little bit of a mask. It just it kind of breaks my heart a little bit. I just kind of wanted to get into that. And I think that maybe some of these places have some implicit expectations. Do you know what I'm saying?

When you're in charge, is how you do that. Oh, the fine print. Right. Yeah. Like and so this kinda crosses over a little bit of the shame and guilt conversations we've been having.

But yes, there is a little bit of that fine print of, hey, this is who we are. This is how we act. And because Jesus is Lord, everything is okay. And so if you've got problems or issues, this might not be the setting for you. And I feel like young adults, emerging adults today, they value the authentic conversations being genuine.

Absolutely. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about that. Mollie, I love starting with you because I feel like you are right smack dab in the middle of working with college age students and you kind of see their world day in and day out. So how is something like vulnerability?

Like, do you see this as kind of a priority for them?

I think over time, we have been conditioned. We, as in young people and people in general, have been conditioned to believe that when we share something that's true on our heart, that someone can use it against us later. That is what I feel like has been, like, not purposely taught, but we've seen this happen. Like, we've seen this happen in media, in politics. Like, we just see it happen everywhere of someone is vulnerable about something, and then it comes out somewhere else that this was actually going on, and there's harm being done.

And Mhmm. I'm really careful when I have conversations with students. I always let them know, like, you can be vulnerable with me, and I can't tell anyone what you say. So it stays with me. Unless it is somewhere where you're gonna harm yourself or someone else, it's gonna stay with me.

And know that I am not gonna harm you or shame you or hurt you. I'm just gonna sit here and listen. And if you wanna hug after, that's where we can find ourselves. And so that sort of posture is the way that I start those kinds of conversations because that may be the first time that a student has felt like they can have a real conversation and knowing having conversation and knowing that they're not gonna be harmed in it. So they have to trust me.

And, usually, these conversations that I have happen once there's been a relationship that's already been established. And there's been conversation beforehand, and there's been a lead up to it. And I have one student where him and I often laugh of the beginning when we first met, there was a lot of time where there was, like, silence. So he would come to my office, we'd talk, and then there'd be, like, a nice lull of silence for, like, a minute. And a minute feels like a long time when you're just, like, with someone else not saying anything.

And Yep. Over time, I would just say, tell me more about that, or I'd question something or, like, help me understand your perspective. And, like, slowly, it just started to kinda come out. And so asking those probing questions, I think, is also really helpful in vulnerability because people don't know if they're really able to share certain things until sometimes you ask and let them know. Like, I'm giving you permission to share this with me.

So it's a both and in that situation.

So and what I hear from that is that you are a person that people could trust. I would. And you are also a person that is identified as like, I'm gonna ask more questions than I'm going to speak.

Absolutely. I want them to tell me more than anything that I'm saying.

Right. And so, and I think the being able to establish yourself as a person of trust is key. And it made me think of why maybe the model of the Catholic priest is maybe as successful as it is, if I can put it that way, where people know that they can go to a priest in confidence and be very vulnerable, right? And James, as a pastor, I think people have learned to establish trust with you. And I know that trust you establishing trust with not only the members of your congregation, but the members of your community is of utmost importance.

So how do you go about establishing that kind of trust so people can come and view you as someone that they can open up to and feel safe with?

Well, that's a great question, Shawn. And I think that one of the most important things that we can do to engender and more greater openness is I was surprised recently with a couple of people who talked not only to me, but had talked to Linda, my wife, after several of the sermons I preached about my own struggles in faith and the places where I was having tough questions at various points in my life, including now, expressing myself became difficult when you're trying to preach about a truth that you're struggling to understand how it applies to your life, all of that kind of thing. And I was vulnerable and authentic in the way, I try to preach authentically all the time. Don't have it all together. I don't pretend I have it all together.

I will never pretend I have it all together. And the first time you see me pretending like I have it all together, it's because, I don't know, I've lost my mind. But the truth is that that kind of vulnerability, several people approached Linda after worship that Sunday when I was busy talking to someone else and just said, oh my gosh, I always appreciate that when James does that, when he just says what's on his heart. Because he's not above us all. He's not out there somehow magically

perfect.

Which is another thing altogether. I don't believe in perfect. But full, mature, complete, healed. Yeah. Perfect.

No. In any case, I think that you have to set an example. You have to be vulnerable yourself. And people, it used to be the default with clergy, the default with professionals in this line of work, the default was to trust. And I think anymore the default is at best somewhere, you know, you're gonna have to show me, do I not trust you or do I trust you, but I'm not defaulting to trust anymore.

Some people I think you have to show who you are. You have to show your true colors to quote Cindy Law. They need to shine through. I think authenticity with the leaders of the congregation. You can't control how everybody else works and whether being vulnerable is safe for everybody, but if you set an example of being vulnerable, then people think this could be a community where I might be able to share what's going on with me and be received with love and respect.

Yeah. And I wonder if the traditional thinking around faith communities, at least in churches, is that, yeah, you really, you just, you need to go talk to the pastor about this. We don't really talk about it here in church. Got to make an with your pastor or one of the church leaders. And that's just sort of ingrained in a lot of faith communities.

Whereas I feel like a lot of young and emerging adults, college students, they find that pretty readily accessible the places to safe places in their own community with their among their own friends like that's just sort of they're talking about stuff that I would have been so scared to bring up among just a group of friends, let alone finding one peer that I could say, hey, you struggle with that too? Or this is what's been going on with me. And I feel like a lot of these conversations, these topics are like, no, we can have these honest conversations. We're just trying to be real. And yet we can't seem to lock into that in our churches.

And I'm wondering, is it because it's just well, this is how we've always done it. There's no point in changing. It's not going to change. We're just here to say hello to everyone, make sure everyone's wearing the right clothes, and you're got your life together. Let's sing some songs.

The pastor's going to say three things, and then we're gonna do a benediction and we're out. So how do we go about changing the mindset here, the perception that churches really aren't a safe place to open up? And I think James, led into it a little bit with being vulnerable yourself. Because I read somewhere that it like vulnerability can be contagious. Absolutely.

Others hear that it doesn't have, you know, when someone else doesn't have it all together, oh, thank God, well they're not perfect either. And I think that's another thing that the church has propped up is this idea of, well, as soon as you get Jesus in your life, you're perfect. You know, it's it's all gonna be okay. Everything's gonna pan out and don't you worry about a thing. And when that doesn't quite happen, and they're like, oh, I don't want people to realize that I'm still dealing with stuff or that I've got this in my life and you know?

And so how can we how can we go about changing that perception? Mollie, got any ideas?

I think it starts with remembering that we're all broken, Right? Like, we're all broken people doing our best to navigate a broken world. It is just brokenness that we are in in every form, and that doesn't mean that it's not beautiful. I think brokenness is incredibly beautiful. I think too, like, that's why we have god because we're not perfect people, and that's the whole point.

To live in our imperfection is to live as god designed us to be. And so if we're journeying in that sort of posture, thinking about what that looks like, I think it even starts with, as James was speaking about, if we wanna talk about in our churches, individuals that or ways that we can help individuals be vulnerable, that really looks like the pastor or the individuals in leadership being vulnerable first, showing people that it's really an okay thing to do and inviting them into that. But doing also, when we are vulnerable, though, there is this I don't know how to say this, but I'm gonna say I'm gonna try. There are sometimes moments when we are vulnerable or perceived as vulnerable, but it's not for an honest and true interaction. Mhmm.

Yeah. And so I want to make sure that I name that if we are going to be vulnerable in the church, it needs to be for an honest reason to help other people move forward and not for ourselves to get some sort of pity or whatever we wanna gain for ourselves specifically. And I think we haven't modeled vulnerability in its truest form in a way that actually leads people to healing, completeness, and all those things as we continue to move. We've actually led people to a place where it's unhealthy for them. And so how do we lead people?

I think that's the large question. How do we lead people to healthy vulnerability in our churches? And I think that's the conversation that we're all having together now, and as a local and larger church, we're trying to navigate.

I would echo that. And I would say, I'm not sure church, when I think of church, sometimes I get stuck in what I see on Sunday morning in worship. 8,100 plus folks sitting together. I am not sure that that is a safe setting for most people to be vulnerable.

Think there are

too many unknown people in that group. Some of those people are first time visitors who themselves may be struggling and their way of dealing with struggling is to make other people feel bad about the things they're struggling with. You know, we often kind of comparison game that as we've talked about before, the shaming, guilting game on other people because that somehow we think is going to make us feel better about ourselves. So I do think that one of the things about vulnerability is that it's about intimacy intimacy is something have to choose. There are levels of intimacy that are appropriate with your life partner that are not appropriate with the person sitting next to you on the metro train in Washington DC.

Right. Not the same levels. And there are places that are safer than other places. And I wish the church was more like a 12 step recovery program for sin addicts. If you will, for people who are addicted to brokenness, addicted to a lifestyle that pushes them further and further from the truest self that God intended for them.

If we were like that, we would be excited to see people who show up fifteen minutes late because they may have not made it that week, but we're so delighted they did. And we wouldn't celebrate. 12 steps can be dangerous sometimes too because a person you know, likes to be celebrated for their addiction. And so they're always the one who wants to speak. At least I've heard these kinds of things.

And I do think that, you know, there are settings that are appropriate and you just have to be careful about who you think is a good person to You're going to make mistakes. Let's just be honest. Made a mistake when I went and saw that pastor and sat down to talk to him and thought that they would hear me and see me and not shame me. And I was completely wrong. I was absolutely and completely wrong.

And so that could have said, all right, I will never be vulnerable again in my life. But that's not what happened. And I'm very fortunate therapy, talking to people, learning careful boundaries, the appropriate people to talk to, appropriate circles, not you know, I'm starting to make some labels, take that away. There are certain people that I wouldn't feel comfortable talking about my deepest struggles. And so finding the right people and some of those right people are not in the church, but I dare say there are some of those right people who are in religious institutions.

And the problem is we're not generic in the church. We're not a bunch of clones of each other. So all of us are not safe and all of us are not unsafe. And you have to kind of feel your way through and see who's trustworthy and who's not.

I agree.

Well, we're going to take a pause right here and then come right back. We still have a lot more to talk about. Don't go away. And welcome back to another episode of Spiritual, Not Religious. All right, let me get this figured out here real quick.

Who am I? Where? What am I doing? All right, yes. Second half of Spiritual, Not Religious as we are talking about a lot regarding vulnerability.

And so we want to pick up the conversation around some of the places that we find in Scripture, if you will, where people were vulnerable and vulnerability was held up. Because I feel like religious institutions, faith communities have a long tradition of welcoming in people who are less than or who have missed the mark or have failed terribly. And there's this kind of like a sense of, we accept you right where you are just as you are. And then, on the other side of that, there's an expectation where, well, you got to kind of keep living in to this perfection. You got to, if you've been changed, then you should always be changed.

And we just got to kind of keep holding up this model of right living. And pretty soon, I feel like that kind of model turns into sort of like kind of a country club look, where everyone's kinda looking the same and feeling the same and everything looks very orderly and neat and perfect. Like there's nothing really going on. And it's just this kind of a weird space I feel like is created now. Where you have to show up and fall in line a little bit and vulnerability kind of takes a backseat.

And so either one of you want to jump in on and weigh in on that concept? Do you feel like that is maybe what young adults and college students might be feeling when they walk into a church where it's kind of like, well, you can't you got to be living into these higher expectations. And did anything that I just say make any sense at all?

Yes, you made sense. I need to jump in first. I was thinking about some, you know, biblical moments when the first one that appeared in my mind was when the woman who had had a hemorrhage for a very long time and she reached out and touched Jesus' garment and he said, who touched me? And when she admitted it was her, it took a moment, you know, after everybody got their lives together, you know, that, you know, the disciples are saying, so, everybody's touching you. What do you mean?

And the woman knew exactly what he meant. She came very down, kind of down on herself. And Jesus said, no, your faith has made you whole. You know, there was no, that vulnerability paid off not in only in healing, but in Jesus not shaming her for having touched his garment. You know, she was vulnerable.

She needed something. She reached out to him. Bartimaeus at the side of the road, you know, in Jericho as Jesus was leaving to head out of town calls out to him and is, I need to be healed, you know. And that kind of vulnerability, I know I'm broken, I need something. And Jesus responded by being there for him and offering, first of all, healing and hope to him, sight again, both physical and spiritual.

So I think that those are just the first two that appeared in my head. There were a lot of other people

anybody who

who is seeking something from another person who has nothing from their perspective to offer in return, it makes them, I think it makes them feel vulnerable.

Right, and I was thinking of the examples of the woman who poured the perfume on Jesus's feet in front of her And the woman caught in adultery of course, who was thrown naked at his feet. As a couple of other examples, which I think we have a lot of examples. Sermon on the Mount. Blessed are those who mourn. Blessed are the meek.

You know, blessed are the merciful. So like, we have these examples and yet I feel like we really can't live into them in a lot of church contexts. We don't seem to be able to balance, I guess. What is what we find in places like Scripture, and then just kind of real life living. Do you know what I'm saying?

Yeah.

Well, think I do think that we tend to be more In spite of the facts we've spent the last two thousand years demonizing the Pharisees for their approach to rules, I think our propensity as people is to get some good rules and draw them and use them as power tools against anyone who doesn't quite fit the picture for us. Right. And so I do think in self protection or protection of the institution, and that's the danger. I don't think Jesus ever came to build an institution. I'm not throwing shade on the institution necessarily, but it's sometimes it becomes self perpetuating.

Right. That we gotta stay around. And so we gotta have some rules. And part of the rules is, know, the powerful people can denigrate anybody else who comes in who doesn't fit their mold. I don't think that's true, but it does.

Mollie, what about you? I think you had something to say and I jumped right in.

That's okay. I think for me, what I love about all these stories that we've talked about and that we've mentioned is like not the story not just what the person is sharing with Jesus, but the way Jesus responds to the individuals. Right? Like, Jesus doesn't say, woah. You should feel shame.

You know? Like, oh, actually, you seem

to Don't touch me. Exactly. Filthy thing.

Wrong with you? Like, you're disgusting. You know? Like, there's the way he responds is

out

of mercy, out of grace, and out of love and reminds people that even in your brokenness, even in when you share your brokenness with others, like, that is a place where I meet you. And so how do we show up with our posture to meet people in the same way Jesus did is like what I feel challenged by in that conversation.

Yeah. And even Jesus learned in those conversations because my favorite story, one of my favorite stories is the Syrophoenician woman who comes to Jesus and asks to be healed. And he says, I'm here for the children of Israel and not for the dogs outside of Israel, implying that she's a dog. And she says, even the dogs gather the crumbs from under the table. And Jesus is rebuked and changes direction because of her vulnerability and her confrontation.

And he realizes, whoopsies, I was wrong and heals her. So, you know, can lead to vulnerability. Not everybody interprets that particular story of Jesus the same way I just did, and may get more mail than we've ever gotten before because I said Let's

go bring it.

That's Bring it my take on that. One of my takes on that story.

Yeah. And I wonder if faith communities at large just really struggle on how to be vulnerable. Like they're not sure quite how to figure this out. And because again, I think it comes back to there's a bit of attention here that we find ourselves in where, okay, you're hurting your loss, your sinner, you need to be saved by grace. Okay, you got it.

Now, why is your life still a mess? Why are you still coming back and things aren't quite where they how they should be? Why you still struggling with these things? And we can get into some like theological concepts like we're living in the already but not yet kingdom of God and things like that. But I think this is a really tough spot that we find ourselves in and we're not really sure what to do with it.

And so we just sort of maybe like pretend like everyone's okay. And we give the the greeting in the hallway on the way to our Sunday school class. It's the Hallelujah Howdy, where it's like, yep, everything's fine. We're good. It's all good.

Worries here. So like, how can we I don't know. What what can we is it that is it that the church feels like they find weakness shameful? Like, you know, where's the power of God in your life? And why are you, you know, so vulnerable?

Do we answer this for young adults? Or how can we talk about this in a way that young adults can feel like they can approach a church setting or have these conversations in a place that I mean, if they're like longing to plug into a community, which I would think that the three of us believe community is where you need to be in. A faith community to grow and to be nourished is exactly where you're supposed to be. But like, what if they don't trust that community? What what do we tell them?

I wanted to share I was in a recovery group for the last eight weeks. It's called Journey to Freedom, and it's recovery. Mostly when we think of recovery, we think of alcohol, drugs, and the societal things that we are saying we need to recover from. This can be those things, but it's also, recovery from things like people pleasing and perfectionism and all those sorts of things that are still addictions. They're just socially acceptable addictions is the way that we see them.

And so as we moved through this journey to freedom, we had eight weeks to really name these things in our lives. This book, Journey to Freedom, is by Scott Real, and it's absolutely amazing. And I'm gonna be implementing it in what we do as we move through things at Wesley. And it's a great opportunity to find those places in your life of vulnerability and, like, where could you be vulnerable? And so we had a group of about eight individuals that were clergy that met each week for eight weeks and had intentional conversation.

And it was so incredibly healing as a non clergy person in that clergy setting to hear people say that they struggled too and that they were also just people doing the best they could with what they had. And from that experience, I will be using freedom in other places in my life. But I also think that if we're in covenant groups or in small groups, those are perfect places to be vulnerable. Small groups are perfect places to show who we are in the most authentic possible. Like James had mentioned in the earlier half, it doesn't make sense for us to say to an entire congregation of people, our dark is secret.

I don't think that's ever

true. Exactly. But I

think Yeah. But to say it in a small group, I think that that's really special. And so maybe within your whole church or within your whole faith community, you don't feel like all of that is a safe place. But can we find safe people and create a group of people within that that we can share things with and that we can bring things to and that we can have real authentic conversation with? And that's what I encourage my students to do.

We have small groups actually tonight, at 06:30 on campus, and we we do a lot of intentional things at small group. And so small group specifically is what also John Wesley Wesley and bands, what he started as this idea of meeting in community in smaller ways and asking how is it with your soul. And so I think all of that goes with this understanding of how young people can use the spaces that they're in and help themselves be vulnerable in them.

I do think that one thing that we need to say is it took a while for you, if you're a young person listening to us, it took a while for you to find a community of friends in that your were trustworthy enough to be vulnerable with for you to share your life with. And I'm hoping for you that you have those. But the same would be true of just about any faith community that you would go to participate in. You will not know until you've been there for a little while. You'll see the signs that there are people who are clearly trustworthy, people that other people seek out for counsel, that kind of thing.

And you can then choose to talk to those people. We would like instant vulnerability, but vulnerability by its very nature does not invite that kind, you know, us to be intimate with everyone we meet. We have to choose carefully the boundaries within which we work. So the church can't be an immediate response anymore than finding friends can be an immediate response because sometimes you make a friend who turns out to not really epitomize the definition you had in mind for what friendship is.

Absolutely. Thanks for naming that, James. Absolutely.

Right. And the hope is that finding a community, at least in a faith aspect, especially for our spiritual non religious friends who might not feel comfortable in a religious institution, but are still wanting to press into the things of God and to grow in their own faith. Finding a faith community really is kind of the next step. And hopefully some advice here that James and Mollie have been giving will be helpful when considering next steps for that. And hopefully you could do that.

Because vulnerability does work best in close and loving relationships. And I know that there are a lot of churches out there that want to turn the tide on some of these perceptions that churches have of not being really willing to listen and to love, no matter what is said or who you are. But I think we've got a lot more work to do. Vulnerability takes a lot of courage and humility. And so for Mollie, I want you to talk a little bit about the humility that you see in your college students and why that's so important as far and also just the courage.

Again, I'm around college students and young adults on a daily basis. And they're having conversations with each other. They're just so open and free and wonderful. I wish I had that when I was growing up. But speak a little bit about why humility and courage tend to be, I don't know, I guess easier for today's college students?

Or do you see that a little differently? Maybe they're not.

I think it depends on which spaces we're in. So Sure. Right now, I absolutely. So I work in, Northwest Tennessee, and I think here it's a little bit different than where I grew up in New Jersey where I felt like you could have a lot more open and honest conversation about things.

Mhmm.

And in West Tennessee, there's kind of this different understanding that, like, oh, no. That's not something that we say or maybe we put that under the rug or we don't wanna hit on this specific topic because that feels like too much. And so there's also context of where you are based on what is acceptable and what is not. But over across the board, I think young people have more courage than anyone if first off, I mean, to navigate the world today as a young person, you have to be a courageous person to be able to do that and to be able to have friends, to make friends, to be able to go to class, to just navigate the world around us. There are so many more things that are on top of us, like social media and politics and all these things in our world that are buzzing around us, and you can never get away from it because of social media.

It's always so accessible to you. And so I think young people with that access to everything feel like they can be more vulnerable in certain being really courageous individuals who have empathy, like, real deep empathy, and they're like, this is not okay. And, like, what we're experiencing is not okay. This shouldn't be happening to our friends. This shouldn't be happening to our family.

This shouldn't be happening to our neighbors. Right? Like, whatever this topic is, they are feeling very deeply. And I think that that's a really good sign. There are some individuals that have apathy and that we've seen, but recently, I've been seeing a lot of empathy in the students that I have been around, and I'm encouraged by that as we move through the world and we navigate the new ways that we're living in it.

Empathy is gonna be really important in the way that we show up and the way that we show the posture of Jesus and the way that Jesus responded to people who needed and wanted healing. Do you feel like that answered your question, Shawn?

Oh, no. 100%. I love that you even brought up empathy, because I think that that is a huge piece of the vulnerability puzzle that we're trying to talk about today. I think that that's brilliant, Mollie. Thank you.

Yeah. So and then for you, James, we are talking about vulnerability and people feeling like, can I come to a church without feeling like I'm about to get fussed at or yelled at because I'm a sinner? What would you want to say to a young adult college student about this, I guess the historical model of, well, you're a sinner until you're saved by grace. And you need to have your act together before you can really kind of plug into our community. How can, as a pastor, can you guide young adults into kind of figuring out what a safe community, faith community might look like for them?

That's another excellent question, Sean.

Well, I'm here all day.

I'll tell you. Boy, the first thing I would say is if you're looking for a space to be vulnerable in church, I would want you to, and this will take courage in and of itself, is to try out a community for at least a couple of weeks, preferably even longer than that. Now, if in the first week you walk in and they are saying things in the sermon and that are as a part of worship that makes you feel uncomfortable and alienated and makes you certain that there's no space for you there, that is not the church for you.

Some are lobbyist cues.

Don't wait the whole month. Yeah.

Don't wait the whole month. However, I've told this story before. I don't know if it's on this podcast or where else, but you know, in the last church I served, there was a person who eventually came to worship in person but who had watched us for six months online before religiously online before they ever came in person. And the reason was they were waiting for the other shoe to drop because we were saying the right things, but did we were we continuing to say the right accepting open things? And when it became clear that that was the long term message, not just you happened on the month where they were all about grace and then they got the other eleven months when they're all about judgment, They waited, and the judgment shoe did not drop.

I'm not saying judgment doesn't have a place. That's another conversation altogether. But you can test the water safely from a distance. Most places do stream these days. And you can watch and see the kinds of things that you can read what their website says.

I know websites are so passe, you know, for young adults.

They're Facebook, Instagram, you know.

You can read those. The problem with most of those is, most of those are that churches don't think they're important enough to really keep them up to date. Sometimes the material in there is not even up to date. The place you're going to find out is really in the community. So if you can, if the first week it seems okay and your red flags aren't immediately rising, try for a little while and then look for the places you might fit in to where you would find a place.

And if you're not obviously finding a place, pastors do exist for a reason.

I

sometimes wonder what it is, but ask, is there a place I could fit in? I'm looking for a place that I could have open conversations about questions of faith that I have. There are a lot of things I'm struggling with that I believe in. You have to decide how much information you want to put out there, whether it seems safe to do or not. And then maybe the you know, maybe you'll be surprised to discover that there's a special conversation group somewhere that talks about all the tough things and shares about it.

So I would say it's going to take some legwork on your part, whether you watch online for a while and then try in person or whether you go in person and try that out and look for the cues that tell you this is a place that's safe, this is a place that is open, this is a place that welcomes, or is this a place that shuts down anybody who thinks differently than they do? And if you come upon one of those places and you get those cues, that is time to walk out the door and find someplace else. And there is nothing wrong with that. Finding a community where you can be you is very important because it ought to be every community. I realize that's an idealistic view.

I've got it. Every community ought to be a place you can go that is safe. But it isn't. It just isn't. And so you're going to have to be careful.

And you will find a place that loves you because I already know that the God of this universe, the infinite, thinks you are unbelievably precious and loves you just the way you are. So I'm sure there's a place for you. Sure.

Mollie, you got any follow-up with that? What would you tell a college student?

James is just so good. I, like, feel like I'm I'm flying now. I would definitely want to add to that that it it it does take time. Right? Like, good things take time.

And so if even if you're starting a small group, it's gonna take some time before the individuals in the small group feel like they can share and feel like they can show up in a vulnerable way. But if you can model that, if you're someone who feels like like, for me, being vulnerable in my job is a different vulnerability than in my personal life, and I'm able to tap into that vulnerability in my job with students. And when I give sermons, I talk a lot about things that I've been through that I've experienced. And from what they've shared with me, I believe that that helps. But also even in that role, there are certain things that I wouldn't share with them that is vulnerable to me because I know that that's not the place to do it.

Of course. And so if you're in a small group and you feel like, hey. I can be vulnerable and say this about me, and maybe it will help someone else feel like they can share, I encourage you to do that. Know that we, the three of us, are people who are more than willing to listen and be a place if you need that. I know that we tag our Instagram and all those things, our Gmail as well, and so please reach out to us if you have anything that you feel like you need to share or wanna be a part of, this community in a different way.

I think that small groups are really important in the way that we show up in the world. And even if that small group doesn't look like a traditional

Yep.

Small group in a church, maybe that's just a group of two friends and yourself that hang out and get coffee every other week. That is a small group. That still counts. So where two or more are gathered friends, it is technically a small group. And so being vulnerable with people that you love, that you care for, and that care for you and love you well is what's important.

So don't give up. Yeah,

exactly. And the point again is to how can we is to get people to feel like they can continue to move towards a faith community to continue to move towards growing with other people, especially if what you claim is spiritual, not religious. We do want you to feel like you can be part community. And if you are feeling vulnerable, then this is something that we definitely want you to feel like you can plug into. And so I think Mollie and James, you guys have offered some really great ideas to think about.

And again, you can always reach out to us, which Mollie, why don't you tell them how to get ahold of us because if you we want to hear your stories, particularly if you have one relating to this matter of vulnerability, whether it was positive or negative, we'd love to hear about it or just reach out to us and Mollie, tell us how to do that.

Yeah. I'm actually gonna throw it to James this week. He was very excited to share with you. So James, why

don't you share with Let

me just tell you right now, you can you can follow us. You can follow us on Instagram, and we we would love to have you follow us at spiritual dot not underscore religious podcast. You can also email your ideas, questions, support, delight, whatever comes to your mind to spiritualnotreligiouspodcast@gmail.com. We love you, our listeners. We are delighted to be on this journey with you.

And we hope that if we can be an asset to you, you will use us in those kinds of ways. And please share this podcast if it's been helpful to you because other people may be surprised to hear that there is a spiritual not religious podcast run by three wackadoodles, lovable, people who take being spiritual, not religious seriously and take you seriously. So we

would love to have it.

Yeah. Thank you, James.

That was awesome. I don't think it could have been undone any better. So well done, Mollie, for putting James to that task. Hey, listen, another great episode. We appreciate you tuning in.

Once again, thank you so much for making this part of your day with us. And just know, like James said, you are loved. Reach out to us. We'd love to hear from you. And we look forward to talking with you on our next podcast.

See you then.

See you soon.