Spiritual, Not Religious

Hey, y'all. Welcome to spiritual not religious. This is a podcast for young adults that explores the intricacies of God's kingdom and the modern world.

Hey, friends. And welcome to spiritual not religious, and to our eleventh episode. I'm your host, Sean Wimberd, and I am joined by my cohost, the infamous James Henry and the remarkable Molly June Miller Bachman. We are truly excited and blessed that you are joining us and our emerging podcast. And we wanna say how much we appreciate you joining us and hope that as this podcast grows on you, that you will be encouraged to share Spiritual Night Religious with others who are wandering in the spiritual deserts of their lives and need a place of rest and healing and just good conversation.

Our heart's desire is to engage emerging young adults about questions regarding all things spiritual and religious, as well as everyone who ends up thinking about God's kingdom and how that looks in a modern world of multicultural and pluralistic ideas. And whether you're still in middle or high school, or you just graduated high school, or you find yourself in college, or maybe you're just starting a family, or starting a job, or perhaps you're in full blown retirement, and you have some questions about the church, about belief, about morality. We invite you to take a deep dive with us as we discuss all these things and more. And we wanna hear from you. And then we invite you to submit your questions or ideas for future podcast topics.

Send those to us, and we will let you know how to get, those to us at the end of this podcast. Now, in this episode of spiritual and religious, we wanna take a look at a trend that we are finding among youth and young adults that reveals a lack of value placed on how spirituality and religion affect everyday life. Now the research of this finding is still under development and is being conducted by the Lilly Foundation. And killer bit of research covers several factors of service, faith, vocation, and more. One of the pieces of this looked at responses regarding the importance of faith in everyday life.

Early signs point to results that indicate that although matters of faith were seen as important, these same matters are not thought to impact everyday decisions or to play a crucial role in everyday living. Which leads us to ask, are matters of faith something to compartmentalize? Can they be separated like church and state from our everyday lives? Why might someone want to keep what they believe about morality, about God, and service to others separate from how they live during the week? Of course, these questions and more get to the deeper ideas and motivations that we want to talk about in this episode of spiritual not religious.

So let me welcome in James and Molly. And, it is so good to see you both and get into these matters of belief and how they're lived out. So catch us up on how you both are, and let's start with you, Molly. Recently married, moved into your new place, starting seminary, working a full time job, having to pick up after your husband. No.

And a partridge in a pear tree. Molly, what is going on with you?

Yeah. So you pretty much covered it. I got a lot going on, but it's been really good and really fruitful, and I'm loving seminary. It's awesome. So

Okay. Yeah. So you're right at the beginning of seminary. Right? And what are some of the classes that you're in currently?

This is my first semester. I have a practicum class. So, like, taking what we're learning and then applying it into our context. And then I have a Hebrew Bible class that I really like. I love my professor.

He's awesome.

Hebrew. Alright. Let's go. That sounds fun. Okay.

Alright. Well, James, what is happening in your world? Recently moved starting to starting in a new church for you and your wife and new home and new community and what else?

They are welcoming us with open arms. It's good. I came after a guy who'd been here for twenty five years and done really good work. So, famous him, but I bring my own Jamesness to the work and that seems to be flying. So there you go.

Alright. Okay, guys. Well, let's just jump right on into this. So our topic, religion and belief. It sounds like with a lot of young folks, it it's becoming a bit conditional and subjective and comp compartmentalized.

Let's let's talk a little bit about that. And and Molly, let's let's start with you, right? Working with young adults over at UT Martin, are you seeing this? Are you finding that within your folks? Is this something that you guys are talking about?

What what what are your thoughts on that?

Yeah. I think for what I've been experiencing, I have students who sometimes don't understand how to bring worship and the love and the way what they're learning from Jesus and adding it into their contextual lives. And I think that that makes sense in certain ways to me where, if we're seeing individuals live it out in a certain way, and then we're like, hey. That's, like, not the way that I wanna live it out, and I don't have an example of that, then I don't know how to do it. And so I'm working with my college students on, like, a lot of the matter of it is the posture of your heart and what that looks like.

And so are you coming from a place of is your posture, you know, I want to put Jesus in every day. I want to have this be a part of what I'm doing and it to be important to me. Am I making time for it? Or am I just saying, I'll be there on Sunday, and then after that, I'm done. And so we're working on the posture of our heart being all week continuing to worship and stay engaged in that way.

Yeah. What do got James?

Well, the words, I mean, we are all beings of spirit. Know, we think sometimes that we're human beings have a spiritual experience, but the truth is we're spiritual beings having a human experience. And so, we are spiritual all the time, whether we realize we're spiritual or not. So, it connects. And I guess the difference is really about, you know, intentionality.

How I mean, you don't have to look religious or spiritual to take seriously the spirituality of your life. The way we live can be, I mean, at its most basic level, most most basic level that I think of when I listen to as a person of faith in the Christian tradition. Jesus taught me to love God and love my neighbor and love is the key. And so, if I can find ways to make love real in my everyday life, then I am actually practicing my spirituality, even if I don't walk around saying Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus all the time, my spirituality of kindness, of patience, of being present, of loving the other, even the other who doesn't see the world as I do, and sometimes that's a real struggle right there. That's the hardest.

That's the place where I would like to occasionally compartmentalize my faith because it is hard work sometimes to love people who don't see the world the way I see the world because I'm sure I'm right and they must be wrong.

We all know you are. There you go.

And the truth is, I

need them

at their own space to be them. So, loving is being spiritual. So sometimes people are being spiritual just the way it's been defined for them. They don't think they're being spiritual. That's one way to see it, at least for me.

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Yeah. And and I definitely wanna get into that, a little bit more in the podcast about how perhaps they are already living out their faith in ways that they don't even know, even though they're trying to maybe compartmentalize that a little bit intentionally. And I think it's interesting. I heard from you, James, that there's this explicit versus implicit way of living out what our belief is. And sometimes that is being in a crowded room talking about a parable that Jesus told folks and and is a is a way of expressing our belief and sharing this person of of Jesus who the three of us follow.

And and maybe for someone else that might be a different story or set of circumstances, but as a way of explicitly showing what they believe. Right? And then that implicit form of instead of saying the name of of Jesus, it's speaking in in kindness, forgiving someone, doing these acts of service kindness kindnesses that express love who God says that God is love. And so, yeah, implicitly showing what they do believe. And that's that's that's an interesting thing for us to talk about.

But I wanna go back to something you did say, James. You said you don't have to look spiritual to be spiritual. Let's let's unpack that a little bit. That's that's a fascinating idea for me. So what does that what do you mean by that?

Molly, think of, you know, young adults that you are are working with, and like, is I wonder what they must feel like when they're out in the world, and do they do they wanna look like a certain kind of a Christian or a certain kind of a believer, or are they trying to not associate with certain kind of believers and, but this whole appearance thing. So let's talk a little bit about that. James, why don't you jump in there and then Molly, jump in there as well. So what do you kind of unpack that a little bit more? You don't have to look spiritual to be spiritual.

Well, when I think about looking spiritual, there are people who wear the trappings of faith on themselves. They and I have nothing against wearing the trappings. I have a cross. I wear the cross sometimes. Mean, but there are people who go out of their way to look like they're acting spiritual.

And then there are people that go out of their way to love other people. And one may not the second one may not seem like spirituality and yet it is particularly for me, it's motivated deeply by my, you know, love of God and love of neighbor and I'm trying to live out what Jesus said. So, when I guess the explicit versus implicit that you're bringing up to me, sometimes people try to look religious they but it's less about the trappings and it's more about the intentionality of being kind and loving like Jesus was. I mean, yeah, there's a time to call things out and say, listen, this is not okay. And you have to stand up for what you believe.

But for a lot of times, it's just being loving to the person who otherwise wouldn't be loved. So when I'm talking about, you don't have to appear spiritual. It's not in the clothing you wear. It's not whether or not you, have body art, or any kinds of piercings or things like that. Those are not the marks.

Marks when I was growing up, you know, good girls and boys looked a certain way and like, no, didn't. You know, I could look really good, but I could do all sorts of bad things in other places. So it's not about looking spiritual, it's about being about who you are and letting it flow. And I do think you can't help but be who you are and if you're deeply spiritual, it comes out whether you think it's coming out or not trying to put it in compartments. Did that make it any clearer Sean?

Maybe Molly will fix it.

Yeah, no, I think. Yeah, yeah. Molly, what do you got?

I like the way that you said that James of the fact that some people, like, are very visible in the fact that they're spiritual or that they're religious or that they follow Jesus. And they're like, this is what I do. This is why I do it. And they, like, wear it as, like, this armor in a way. And then there's other people who naturally who are following Jesus but who are naturally just loving and caring and full of grace.

And they don't have to wear that armor to show people that they're doing that. That's just the way that they live. And so I think there's a difference between it being the way that you live and you having to tell people this is who I am.

Mhmm. Right.

Now, Sean, maybe you need to fix it for us. I mean, you know,

there you go. And they shall know us by our love. Right? And I'm all for how our our our lives are construed, how people, are affected by our actions. And I think that that tells a greater story than anything that we could ever wear, or advertise, either on our bumper stickers or on the things that we can adorn ourselves with.

I think the greater story is do what do our actions speak? Yep. Right? And then I think then it has to, in turn, where where does that come from? Is that just because you wanna be a nice, person?

Or is that because you have experienced love from a supreme being who, has told you, hey, I want relationship with you, and here's how I show love, and I want you to go and do likewise.

Yeah.

And so but I think, yeah, with a lot of, high school students, middle school students, young young adults, it's it's an interesting time. Like, how how expressive do they feel comfortable with being? And is there is there other moments of like, I don't wanna say the wrong thing. I don't wanna offend someone or I really don't care what they think. So I'm just gonna do it.

And and this is a this is a tough age. I mean, people typically want to, not stand out a whole lot. But at the same time, does our faith call us to be brave? Does our faith call us to stand out based on our actions?

Well, on that count, I would say yes, Sean. I would say yes, it calls us to stand out and because our response even to I mean, Jesus taught a number of ethical realities that impact our lives. The idea of turning the other cheek and that's not about being a doormat, that's about embarrassing the person that hit you because in order to hit your other cheek, they have to use an inappropriate hand. And it, you know, it's about calling people out and standing up ethically for what you believe is right. And I do think that that's important.

The hard part, let's just be honest, you know, when you're in your teens and 20s, you got a lot of things going on. Your brain isn't fully formed until you're like 25, 26 years old. So, you haven't fully formed your brain, You're you I'm not denigrating you. I had the exact same. I'm not some people question whether at this age I've even got a fully formed brain, but that's

a side issue.

And you know, you've got all these fresh hormones running around in your body. There's all these things that are, you know, that seem to be pulling at you. And you have cut the strings oftentimes with family and are looking for acceptance among peers. So sometimes if you have a set of peers that think certain things are alright and you haven't truly formed what your faith is supposed to be about, it's hard to figure out how do I not become excluded because we are born to be tribal people. How do I not be excluded?

But also how do I not just go along with everything and suddenly, you know, become so open minded that my brain leaks out. You know, there's it's hard and if you don't have someone who can mentor or encourage you to see where decisions you make, all of them can flow from a place of faith and perhaps give some parameters for what that looks like. It doesn't have to be standing up and preaching, but it can simply be saying, you know, we don't have to gossip about Mary down the street. Whatever's going on in her life, we don't know what's going on in her life. So we don't need to talk about her.

Know, how would you feel like if I went over and saw Mary and we started talking about you? Probably wouldn't be good. So you know, let's just recognize, you know, somebody says something racist in a conversation. Somebody says something anti LGBTQIA plus in a conversation. Do you go with the flow and just figure there's nothing I can do about that?

Or do you does your faith call you out to say, oh, hold on just a second. We love everybody and there's a reason why Jesus is pretty clear about that. You know, And I want to be clear about that. Mean, so yes, we ought to be motivated by that faith, but sometimes I hear people say a lot. And not back it with their actions and then I see some people who are really active and don't say a lot and I would almost rather say, you know, there's a wonderful parable Jesus told about two brothers.

Their father asked him to go out in the field and one said, no, I'm not gonna do it. And that was very disrespectful. The other one said, yes, I'm gonna do it. And the one who said, no, I didn't change his mind went out and did something. The one who promised his dad he was gonna go out and do something didn't do it.

Now, there's no easy answer to what does that parable supposed to mean except that I do think that actions speak louder than words sometimes and sometimes we are really good and I can speak for Christians. I'm not going to talk about any other faiths. Christians are really good about talking a good talk, but when it comes to walking the walk, we do not look particularly good. So it's very easy to become disillusioned and say, I'm sure faith will play a part in my life, but just right now, not so sure.

Yeah.

What you got Molly?

Yeah. I think what I hear in that

Any follow-up with that?

Absolutely. I think what I hear in that is for college students or for specific college students because that's the demographic that I work with, it's really hard to stand out and also fit in. Right? Like, we wanna stand out in our faith but also fit in to society and fit in with our peers. Mhmm.

And so there's a wrestling for them of I wanna fit in. I wanna be included. I wanna belong. But how do I belong if this is who I am or this is what I believe? Or this is what I'm seeing being laid out in the world, and that's not who I identify as or who I am following is not that of what I'm seeing.

And so I've had a lot of conversations with students about how can our actions make it so that our posture is of love and care and not of any other type of understanding. Because I think when we come from a place of love that is known to the person that we're loving, And when we come from a place of hate, that is also known from the person who is being hated. And so if we remind ourselves that it needs to come from love and we live into that deeper, that can speak very loudly.

Yeah. And when I look at the example of this this man, Jesus, who seemed to walk that line really, really well,

and

how he was able to be in the world with these folks, the the tax collectors and the sinners, and people who the religious community looked down upon and shunned even and was able to hold this both and that I feel like a lot of people are are trying to struggle, how to do well and effectively. Like, they they they want to love their neighbors. They they they want to show love to people, but there's disagreements. I I I I don't believe the same way that you do about fill in the blank. Right?

But at the same time, we're still called to show dignity. We're still called to show love, like James was talking about, because that's who Jesus is. And And Jesus seemed to do that really, really well. Yeah. And sometimes I wonder if this is where religion slash, many parts of the church somehow have missed the boat or just don't live in too fully, or maybe they just completely see it in a in a very different way than I'm reading when I when I look at the life, and behaviors of Jesus who picked up a woman mostly naked, if not fully naked off the dirt ground in front of a crowd of people and said, I don't condemn you.

Alright? I love you. And and like brought in healing and grace and forgiveness or sat with people that that everyone else had really good cause to not like. Mhmm. And so we we have this example for us to follow, and sometimes we don't do that very well as the church.

We we we kinda wanna pick a a hill to die on, or we wanna pick a reason why we we shouldn't love these people that we should actually condemn them. Mhmm. And we how quickly we forget the the life of Jesus, the words of Jesus, and I come here to condemn the world. I came to redeem it. I came to save it.

And so I think that young adults and high schoolers and middle schoolers, this isn't really difficult time in their life to kind of start to pick and choose how they're going to live. And just because you're wearing a cross necklace doesn't mean anything. I mean, it really doesn't. Like, how many people are wearing cross necklaces? And I mean, when I was growing up, I'm a Gen Xer.

I was growing up, and if you had a cross necklace, well, that was just a clear sign that you went to church or that you, you know, believed in God. And now it's kind of morphed into just it's kind of like this, I don't know, almost a status symbol of sorts. I don't know. It just a lot of people wearing them and doesn't really mean anything. It's just a it's just a emblem, really.

And so how do we how do we encourage the our young adults, our our our teenagers to begin to really kind of grasp and wrestle a little bit more with what it means to actually carry this with them each and every day. Not something that they leave at church, gotta leave church at church, you know, and work at work. I think I think there definitely is some some synergy here that we can kind of get on get into of what that looks like with the both and of being in the world, but not being of it. That that used to be something that was said when I was growing up too. Thoughts on that, guys.

Yeah. I think there's definitely ways to be in the world and not of the world. I definitely think that's a lot harder now than it ever has been. I mean, I'm only 26, but from my experience of living and what I know about what other people have been saying and just the way that we're living right now, I think that this is the hardest time to believe in something bigger than ourselves and to stand out in that way. I think there's different versions of what that can look like.

And I think some of those versions are harmful. And so if we want to stay away from the harmful versions, we have to be really careful in what we say and how we say it. And so I often think that my some of my students are afraid to stand out because they don't wanna be identified as someone in a crowd of people who they're not in. And so it's this both end of being in the world, not being of the world, and also not being put in a box based on what people are assuming about who you're being. So there's just a lot at play there.

A couple of thoughts and I'll try to keep them relatively short as opposed to sometimes I wax long, on those things. But in the world and not of the world, sometimes it makes it sound like the world itself is bad. And that's I think when Jesus said to be in the world and not of the world, what he was talking about is the way that the world behaves. He was talking about the way that the world chooses who is on the ins and who is on the outs. We don't want to follow the path that says the best people are the ones God is rewarding by making them rich.

And the ones who are poor are clearly being judged by God as bad because God rewards the people who are good and doesn't the other and that just doesn't seem to be true. So, there's that sense that we're not to value people based on the way other people do, whether they wear a suit, whether they we talked about body art, you know, their gender identification, none of those kinds of things are the way we're called to judge people. We're just supposed to accept and love people right the way they are. But and the other, and I'll try to make that this next one very brief is I think that the problem is choosing to say that I'm spiritual or religious and particularly if it's from the Christian tradition, which brand of Christian, you know, people generically try to put you into a brand.

Yes, absolutely.

Christianity has got a real bad name today. Things like Christian Nationalism, which is not Christian at all. It's national and it's nationalism, but it's using Jesus to prop up a particular ideology as opposed to listening for the ideology of Jesus and trying to follow that. So, know to say you're Christian sometimes today or to even try to live into it. Who is the model you're going to follow?

And maybe one last point is I don't think we've given them good. You know, we talk about language sometimes. What does saved mean? I mean, people talk about being saved. Saved?

What does that mean? And if you understand that what Jesus is talking about and ways to translate that word, particularly if he was okay, we're going to do the little Aramaic real quick. It really means to be healed, to be made whole, to be made complete. It's not about somebody dropping some bloodlet drops on you and now suddenly you're sliding into, you've got your ticket punched into some kind of next worldly cool place. Maybe that's what it's about, but I think it's a lot more than that.

It's about being healed and recognize that the person you are can be whole and you can be realigned with God's purpose for your life. And then that purpose is lived out in the way that you go to work, the way that you play, in the way that you go to church, in the way that you hang out with your friends, in the way that you hang out by yourself, and drive your car, and buy groceries. I don't know all those things.

Yeah. I love that that idea of shalom and maybe, James, you can kind of walk us through that word a little bit more. It's not just a, hey, peace to you, my friend, but that there's more of a holistic, meaning behind all of that and maybe some of the reasoning that was said so much, when Jesus was walking around. But it did make me, think of something that I did read in scripture and that stated that God doesn't look at appearances. God considers the heart.

And I think that's really important for us to remember because we are in a culture that does consider, the appearance of a person, and not just how they look, but just everything about that person, how much money they make and their their status and their ability and capability in the world. And we kind of uphold that in a lot of different ways. And there's a bit of a status symbol, right, that people try to strive after because that's what we have prioritized. Right? And and and that's nothing new.

I mean, we've been doing that since Adam and Eve. Just we've perfected it. We've really come a long way with that. And so, but I I think, yeah, how the fact that God does look at our heart, and what does that mean moving forward in our understanding of the way we carry ourselves and the way that we carry what it is that we believe into our everyday lives. All right.

James, do you want to say something before we go to break?

I completely agree with you. And everything I'm reading right now tells me that in first century Aramaic culture, actually appearances were less important than sounds and language and in tunement. That's why naming was so important. Sean and I, you and I were having a conversation the other day when I talked about, you know, part of the idea of sin is to be out of alignment with God, like out of tune, like you tighten a string or loosen a string to get it in tune and the sound, the vibration being in tune with what God's purposes for our lives is really where we're trying to go. And I love the heart and it's less about what we look like and even our outward appearance.

It really is about where our heart is. Couldn't agree with you more, so I didn't really need to say anything else. I could have disagreed with you. Sean, you're so on.

And and I was actually thinking more along the lines of the Roman Empire and the status that those folks were striving for and the importance of you in that particular society. And so

And I

think you're absolutely That's where I was

Roman society. I was thinking about Jesus society, which I'm learning a little bit more about, where it was, you know, the Aramaic culture, the Hebrew culture is much more looking at the word that means name in both Hebrew and Aramaic Shem. It's really about light vibration. What comes off of you? Is your ambiance?

When I'm around you, do you feel love? Do you feel hate? Do you feel disconnected? Do you feel dishonesty? What do you feel when you're around me?

How do I vibrate with you? Is what's interesting deeper than just the surface. So it's interesting and the root for Shem vibration is actually in Hebrew in Aramaic, the word for heaven, it's the root of it is Shem, Shemaiah. Heaven is the vibrational reality that connects us all in some way. But we better take a break or we'll never take a break.

So Sean, take us to break.

Doctor. All right. Hang in there with us, everyone. We'll be right back. Alright.

And welcome back to this episode of Spiritual not religious. As we're talking about this, idea of compartmentalizing our faith, our belief, and kind of saving it maybe for those things that we do with our church friends or our religious friends. And then when we're not around those folks, we're kind of doing what we wanna do. You leave the god stuff, with the god stuff, and then, you know, go out and live your life as you see it on your own, and just kind of keep those two. And so we're we're we're trying to talk about how does that really work?

Can that be sustainable? I think the agreement here with the three of us is probably not. But so let's in this second half, let's talk a little bit about what are some things that we can look at, to help us integrate both of these things. And perhaps many of you are pretty living these things out, and you don't even realize that that's that, implicit way of of living out your faith. But, let's talk a little bit about ways in which we can kind of bring both of these two together in a meaningful, way that we believe that we've been actually called to be.

And to to to walk in these, these areas of faithfulness of the things that we believe, it isn't to set them on a shelf and only pull it out once a week, to talk about them and to live into them and then put them back, on the bookshelf and then go on and do something else. And so, friends, I wanna share this verse that comes out of, Romans 12. A good friend, the old apostle Paul, talking about ways in which we can live our lives. And he and he and he's saying in in one and two in this chapter Romans, that we should present our bodies as a living sacrifice, which is like that's that's kind of crazy language right there. A living sacrifice.

So a sacrifice. Well, who are killing? Who are we, you know, putting a knife to the throat, you know, for? But of of course, we're talking about something else. Right?

And we can get into that. But he says, be this living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual form of worship. It says, don't be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind so that you can test and discern what is the will of God that is good and acceptable and perfect. And I think that, this is a really interesting thing for us to kind of, center ourselves on in this this idea of being in the world again, right, but not being conformed to it. And so this isn't saying don't have anything to do with the world.

Stay away from all the evil people, and make sure that you compartmentalize them too. And if they're like someone you don't agree with, well, all a sudden now they're your enemy and just, you know, hate them, but love the people who are nice to you and are kind to you and think like you do. And so some of these patterns that we can easily find ourselves in. Right? Which, of course, Jesus was like, do you remember your enemy and pray for them?

Remember that time I told you to, turn the other cheek when someone smacks it? Do you remember that time I told you to walk the extra mile? And if they take something from you, well, give them your jacket as well. You know, those kinds of things. And so how can we encourage middle and high school and young adults and just all of us to integrate these things that we're taught to believe and then carry them out each and every day.

We're we don't leave church to church. We take church with us. Right? And in our living sacrifice, so the way that we show love, the way that we show kindness, the way that, oh, what is this? The fruit of the spirits that we're supposed to live into?

The way that we show love, joy, peace, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness, patience, self control, and goodness, which we find out that there is no law against these. How can we live into those? How can we take those with us and live those out? Are there are there some tangible ways here, guys? Molly, you're working with these young adults and you're trying to encourage them to live into what it is that they believe?

What are some of the things that you tell them and how to live this out?

Yeah. You know, I take a moment to pause and, like, really think on those love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self control and think about, like, what are those truly mean for us? I think we go around words like that such as, like, oh, I love you, or this person's really kind, or things like that. But do we

Right.

Know, like, the true definition of what that means? And I think we're not fully living that out unless we're following Jesus while we're doing it. I think that

that where There's a certain level of go ahead.

I think that's where it becomes really important and, like, in a holy way when we when Jesus and individuals are together, working together in order to make the world better through the different spirit. I think that's just so important.

Yeah. And you made me think that, just tossing these words around, it's easy to say, yeah, be kind. Be nice. Be gentle. But I think maybe it's a better context to understand these words in in the context of suffering, of pain, of loss, when it's not comfortable, Maybe when you have to sacrifice something.

And and then it becomes a little more real. And so, James, what do you what do you think?

Well, when I'm listening, a couple of things appeared to me is, first of all, I think talking about the fruit of the spirit. Fruit is something that ripens over time. It's not something that you come out with. And while it is a state of being, be kind, be joyful. I think it's to act on those.

It's not just to have them as a state of being, It's to act on those. And I do think because it's a ripening, it comes over time. And intentionality as we grow in our faith. They are actually as fruit of the spirit. They are signs that we are reaching maturity when they start to appear.

They don't always I don't know that they manifest at least in their fullness right at our faith walk. I think there's something that develops. Something we talked briefly about over the break in between things is II do think one of the hardest parts that you all who are listening, who particularly who are teens, tweens, young adults, emerging adults, tech, however old you are, is trying to figure out who you are. Identity is a key. And you're part of pushing all these boundaries that may seem to be outside of faith life is trying to figure out, is that me?

Is that what I want to be like? And I think that oftentimes what you find is that's not who you want to be. And even if you're testing out some water somewhere else, you're not defined by the waters you tested. You're defined that those we let those define us sometimes the mistakes we make and like that. So, I think I think it's hard.

It's hard to see that faith is meant to be every aspect of your life because that means it's flowing from your identity. When we talked about from the heart, if you don't know what your identity is yet. If you haven't figured out who you are. And so, my suggestion, it's you know, for what it's worth is to find people who will walk with you in the hard moments and help you figure out who you are. Who will accept you where you are right now.

Because that's how God accepts you and accepts you right hungry. Accepts you right where you are and will then help you figure out how does this really apply to the way I'm living my life as a college student, as a young professional or whatever work you're doing, how does this define the way I'm a barista or a garbage collector or a lawn mower, not the machine, but a person who does the lawn mowing.

Good distinction, thank you.

Yeah, I wanted to make that clear. It should be clear. So, those are the things that occur to me that there are people who could mentor you in faith, who could listen to you on that journey. That's the hardest thing to find in life. If you find someone that you can emulate, that you can test things with, that you can ask questions of who's not going to judge you but it's going to maybe hear you out.

I think there are ways to incorporate faith more intentionally in your life. I come from a walk of life, the United Methodist Church, where John Wesley was all about how do we practice our faith. It's not just, you know, that we believe. We're not born into a faith necessarily, but how do we practice our faith? And recently, one of the important pieces that I keep bringing up keeps coming up for me is the three general rules of the United Methodist Church which is do no harm, do all the good you can, find this is how I track the third rule is find the practices that bring you closer to god and practice those and you know, if if you can practice doing no harm to yourself or anyone else and that can imply lots of things that you can do all the good you can, you know, find some parameters that kind of fit your life into might help you discover who you are.

That's Those are some thoughts that came up for me from the fruit discussion.

I love that.

Which is great. And going back to your fruit analogy there, it is. It's a practice. It's a trial and error. And so I would encourage anyone to see it in those terms of it's it's it's trial and error.

There's going to be some success, and there's going be failures, but you have to practice it. And so what are ways that each week, each day, you can live into what does joy look like? How can I practice peace in a situation where it's very, unsettled? How can I show kindness when it doesn't feel like I wanna show kindness? And so taking each one of these and finding a way to incorporate them into your every day.

And, yeah, it it is practice them. Practice is what ripens that fruit. And and I love that, James, that you distinguish the fact that we aren't born ready to go and ready to be these instant, people of of faith. It it takes time, and there's gonna be moments where we just completely miss it, and that's okay. It's you gotta keep moving forward.

Right? And and here, I love the the example that we get to look at in hindsight of the disciples, right, Who were around this guy named Jesus all the time and still couldn't get it right a lot of the times. And, yeah, exactly what you just shaking your head, which I'm sure Jesus must have done. He he Jesus probably needed a really good misuse after a while.

That's that's exactly I mean, you know

Killing him.

Baseball. That that Jesus is like

Red forehead.

I had a living breathing example. Yeah.

Hello? Hello?

Sorry.

Yeah. Exactly. So we we've got these these great examples, these pillars of the faith as it is, and they still couldn't quite get it there. And so I just wanna encourage folks who are who may be struggling, who may have just, need need a shot of encouragement or courage. And as the cowardly lion once said in the Wizard of Oz, what put the ape in apricot?

Courage. And my friends, sometimes you got to have that little bit of courage. I know it's it might seem uncomfortable. It might not feel like, the the cool and thing to do, but at the same time, we we've got to be able to step out a little bit on faith sometimes. And stepping out on faith might be not calling someone out on their crap as so much as showing kindness when it's uncomfortable, when it's undeserved.

A little bit like grace has been extended to us. And that's another thing that I think we need to keep in mind is, the amount of grace that is extended to us each and every day for the things that we say and do that don't have anything to do with this god of love. Yeah. And yet this god of love continues to pursue, continues to offer grace and love. And how do we live into that as well to each other?

No matter the differences of opinion or the culture, you fill in the blank. Thoughts on that, friends?

Yeah. I think we're, as Christians, we are called to love people in a way that's radical, in a way that other people look and say, what is that kind of love? How can I also have that? Because I think that that's when we're truly embodying who Jesus is, when people wanna be invited into spaces of love in such a way that it's in abundance. And I believe we should continue to practice that in all the ways that we can in order to show more people who this great God is, but also that they're invited and welcome into that.

I like the word courage.

I love that Molly. That's beautiful.

I like the word courage a lot too because courage actually is a word who's rooted in the French word which means heart. It comes from heart. Courage takes a place choosing a place to stand if you will and sometimes it's harder to have courage than it is to have love. So, being is important. I love what both of you are saying about all of about all of this.

It is hard work and it requires courage. Yeah.

And again, I go back to Jesus. He stood in places with people that I'm sure that he did not agree with on many things and yet stood in a place next to them in love and grace, showing them dignity. And I I just think that that is so much healthier for us to live into and to emulate with one another. And and as this world grows more tenuous and strained, and as divisions continue to arise and occur, now more than ever, it's so important that we live into examples of courage where we are showing grace and kindness and all of these aspects of the fruit of the spirit. And so I encourage us to, yeah, to to be a little more brave.

And and and I love the example that you guys used. I can't remember who said it, but just gossiping about somebody. It's like, hey, I I don't think we should be gossiping. I mean, that's that's not how you wouldn't want us talking bad about you buying your back. Right?

The little things like that. It doesn't have to be this monumental stand on a soapbox in the middle of the school yard proclaiming the good news of the kingdom. Sometimes it's just as powerful to be able to say to someone, look, I'm I'm not gonna gossip about that person. Right? That that doesn't show them love.

It doesn't show them dignity. You know, let's let's rein that in a little bit because I know you wouldn't want that, and I want I wouldn't want that for you. And sometimes those are pretty brave words to say. So, and then give yourselves opportunities to do that. I think we all have opportunities to do this each and every day no matter who we're hanging out with.

But, you know, if there's someone that you are diametrically opposed with, go and spend a little time with them. I challenge you. Go and get to know them. You know, we talked about walking a mile in someone else's shoes. I think that's something that we need to bring back.

Get to know them. You don't have to agree with them. You don't have to start spouting everything that they believe or whatever, but just show them some dignity. Get to know them as a person. Don't demonize who they are by what they look like, by what they say.

Because again, these I mean, we believe that everyone is imbued with who God is. We're made by God. We're God's kids. So if we're all that way, then how can we begin to live into that a little bit more? And so find people that are different from you and get to know them Absolutely.

Is a challenge that I'd throw out. So as we kind of wrap up, are there any things, any final words of wisdom, things that you would like to add to this discussion before we wrap up? And Molly, you tell us how people can connect with us, how they can share their ideas with us, topics for future conversations, thoughts on this conversation today. But anything that you guys would like to share. James, we'll start with you and then Molly, you can wrap up your thoughts and then tell us how to get in connection.

Wow. We talked about a lot. I just want you to remember, you are infinitely precious and unconditionally loved for the gift you already are. And just keep trying to be the gift you are. Be who you are because that's who God made you to be.

And it can be a gift. So, live from that place and know how much God already loves you and how precious you are to God. No matter what anybody else sells. They're wrong.

Thank you, James. I love that. I think right now in the world that we're living in and the way that things are, I think I would remind you to hold fast to things that are good and things that are rooted, things that unite us and not divide us, things that bring peace to your heart and peace to other individual's hearts. And that when we look in the mirror and we see our reflection, we are also part of the divine. And so remember that that lives in you too.

If y'all would like to email us your ideas or questions, you can email us at spiritualnotreligiouspodcast@Gmail.com. Then if you'd like to find us on Instagram, that is going to be spiritual dot not underscore religious podcast.

Alright. That's great, guys. Thank you so much for another great conversation. I'm looking forward to future conversations with you. And as always, thank you for spending some time with us.

Hopefully, this was meaningful. Again, please reach out. We'd love to hear from you. Share those thoughts with, on this podcast. And again, we appreciate you guys and the time that you gave us.

And we look forward to, talking with you next time. In the meantime, be blessed, go in grace, and, be challenged to show that fruit of the spirit to the people that are in your world. And know that we love you. Talk to you soon.