Spiritual, Not Religious

Hey, y'all. Welcome to spiritual not religious. This is a podcast for young adults that explores

the intricacies of God's kingdom and the modern world.

Welcome back to our tenth episode of spiritual not religious. I'm your host, Sean Winburn, and I'm joined by two of my most favorite people in the world. Cohost James Henry and the illustrious Molly June Miller Bachman. We are truly excited that you are joining us as we are off and running through the podcast wilderness. And for those of our brave listeners who are giving our fledgling podcast a chance, We just wanna say how much we appreciate you and hope that this, podcast grows on you, and that you will be encouraged to share this podcast with others who are wandering in their spiritual deserts, and need a place of rest and healing and just plain good old conversation.

Now, whether you just graduated high school or you find yourself in college or maybe you're starting a family or starting a job or you're in full retirement, we invite you to take a deep dive with us as we discuss all things dealing with being spiritual, not religious. And in this episode of spiritual, not religious, we are excited to be introducing our very first guest on the show, who'll be joining us to chat about what it means to not only be someone who agrees with the teachings of this guy, Jesus, but someone who also feels that they can worship this guy. We are really excited about this topic because of the many questions it raises, and how so many tend to find Jesus' teaching teaching something that they can live by, but who find the actual practice of worshiping him something altogether a bit more of an issue. But right now, we want to bring in one of our favorite people, Bridget Williams, a woman so in demand, so beloved, and so amazing. It took us almost two months just to get here on this podcast.

And so Bridgett Williams, welcome to Spiritual Not Religious. How are you?

I'm doing great. I'm excited to be here, and I'm appreciative that you all have the patience to to make it work. We've been we've been working at schedule this for a while, so I'm grateful.

It has been, but your people talk to our people, and worked out all the details. And here we are. So excited. This is really cool that the way that it did work out was that you got to be here on the tenth one. I don't know.

There's something special about the number 10. I don't know what it is, but it just there is something a little added here. And the fact that you are our very first podcast guest is just that much better. This is just gonna be so cool. Why don't you begin to tell us a little bit about yourself, a little bit of your spiritual background, a little bit of your just history, and kinda what you're doing these days?

Yeah. I my name is Bridget Williams, as you said. I grew up in Alexandria, Virginia, which is just in outside of DC in the DC area. And, yeah. My my journey growing up, my dad grew up Baptist.

My mom grew up Catholic, and it was really important to her that we were raised in the Catholic church. So I went to the Catholic church growing up. In high school, I started to teach, like, children's liturgy of the word. So during the homily in mass, right before it, they would call the children and say, okay, you guys are gonna go do your own special activity. So I would teach downstairs and talk about, you know, the the reading, the gospel for that Sunday.

And then going into college, I first year went to the Catholic church some, but I had not really experienced other Catholic churches up to this point. I had really primarily gone to the church that I grew up in, which after going to the Catholic church that I went to in college, I realized was a lot a lot vibeier, a lot more open, very social justice oriented Mhmm. A really diverse group of folks, they kind of have diverse ways of worshiping. We had a a gospel mass that, like, we would typically go to gospel music. And so I feel like once I got to college and started going to that Catholic church, it was just very different.

It was really traditional. And so that was really interesting. And so, kind of in this point of my life, I now live in Hazard, Kentucky, so very different than the area that I grew up in, and then the area that I went to college in, in Charlottesville, Virginia. And I currently work with Appalachia Service Project, which all of these lovely people have also at some And I oversee our new build construction program where we serve flooded families. So families that were impacted in the 2022 floods here in Kentucky and 2025 floods as well.

So we're able to build new homes for them through the funding that we get through grants and through our our donors at ASP. So anyway, so in this time of my life, I I spend time going to different churches in the area. There's a lot more Protestant folks here. There's one Catholic church, so I've been to the Catholic church here, but I also been to a Methodist church and a global Methodist Church. And, you know, I was trying to really seeing I was like, you know what?

I'm gonna immerse myself in in all these experiences and see what it's like to experience these different religious backgrounds that I've always heard about, but I hadn't taken the time to immerse myself in. So that's been what I've been up to. That's a little bit about my faith journey, and I think I'm in a place now of still understanding my own beliefs and being willing to take the time to experience it in different ways.

That is awesome. And thank you for sharing all of that. You and I had an interesting chat a couple months ago. And we were just talking about the podcast and different ideas. And then and I had asked you if you had any thoughts or questions that might be something we could consider for the podcast.

And then you brought this really interesting subject up of being willing to appreciate the the teachings of Jesus, but not really sure what to do with worshiping this man, and kind of having these two different things happening. And so, and I thought, oh my, this is what a great idea to bring on to the podcast, because I feel like probably a lot of people could relate to that. And so Bridget, why don't you kind of like walk us through what what that was, your original question, and then maybe kind of just start us off on your your thoughts about it.

Sure. Yeah. I think when when Sean and I first talked about this, one thing that I had been thinking about, and and then we spoke a little bit about was I remember in when I was confirmed in the Catholic church, they they allow you to do like a hot seat with the priest. Like, that was that was like the big thing. And so I had said to our priest, father Tim, who was really amazing, I really really look up to.

You know, I think one thing that I've struggled with is, even though the context of the time was different, Jesus washing the feet of the disciples and all these people was this thing that was like, oh my gosh, like, I can't believe he's doing this. And to me, even though the context was different, I felt like, you know, the way that we glorify this this act of love makes it seem like it's not ordinary. That makes it seem like it's not something that we can all do. And so I think I had kinda asked, you know, like, well, for lack of better terms, like, well, what's what's the big deal? And while I understand, you know, what the big deal is, I think one thing that I've always, really thought through and what I brought to Sean was this idea that, you know, I have always felt really guided by the teachings of Jesus and of God, but I think sometimes this elevation of the actions of Jesus has made it seem that these, like, acts of God's love are something, like, unattainable.

And so it sometimes, instead of encouraging people to live the values, it allows us to to worship him and to not live the values because even though we're all striving to live like Jesus, we'll never quite get there, which in some which I still, you know, again, like, Jesus is part of the holy trinity, you know, divine, but I also think that there's kind of this, like, disconnect of of what we are able to actually do as people that have god living in us as well. So that's kind of where where Sean and I started our conversation, and that's some of my thoughts of just, you know, where do we where do we go from this idea that these these teachings are things we can follow, but then where does that leave us with, you know, worship versus, you know, aligning ourselves with Jesus as a teacher.

Okay. I love that. And thank you so much for bringing that in in your own words. Molly, so hearing that, let let let's start with you and and kinda get just your immediate feedback on that. What are you what are your thoughts?

What how does that hit you?

Absolutely. Well, Bridget, I think you're incredible, first off. I think that the way that you were able to articulate that was mind blowing. I think it was beautiful. And Mhmm.

I think it's something we've all maybe thought about or struggled with and not been able to name in such a good and holy way. So I really appreciate that, first off. And then secondly, I think that I resonate with this a lot of not being able to understand how sometimes how we can worship this being, this divine man who is also half fully human, fully man. Right? Like, how do we worship him, but how do we also put it in a way where it can be tangible to us and to understand, hey.

We're gonna fall short, and it's okay to fall short. But we can't blame our shortcomings on the fact that we can't get there. And so it's this in between of how do we worship him and understand that he is fully human and fully man and that we can't get there, but then also how are we striving to get there. It's it's a hard understanding and balance, but I really like the way that Bridger articulated that. Thank you for sharing that.

That's great. What you got, James? What's on that mum of yours based on?

There is so much because Bridget, that's a wonderful, powerful question. And I have to say it's my question, it has been my question for a while too. I think sometimes we put Jesus on such a pedestal that we can't imagine that. We imagine that all of his teachings were esoteric. They were this is what something else will be like, like whatever heaven means, you know, or whatever.

This is what it's gonna be like. And I think Jesus taught us how to live. And so if we lift him too high, we lose that spark of divinity in each one of us, which we're told in Genesis. We got it. We got the spark, and Jesus, I think, modeled for us how we can live that out.

So for me, it's walking that line of trying to live the bothand. It is possible to worship, but I think that Jesus really wanted us to follow his teachings, not to elevate him as somebody who could do a Mary he he even said in the gospels, you will do greater things than I did. And we don't act like we're gonna do greater things than he did. We act like he did all the great things. We're just gonna maybe do, you know, something that doesn't quite 75%, if we're really feeling bad about ourself, 22% of what Jesus did, that's all possible for us.

And I think he came to teach a way of life. I think that there is a, it's not really a balance. I think it's an intermarrying of discipleship and perhaps worship. But with the recognition that worship is not standing at a distance and just being in awe as so often we think of worship. Worship is in the Aramaic, it has to do with it it does have to do with awe.

It has to do with surrender. Bending, bowing, surrendering. And it's about yielding my own will over to trying to do God so that I can align myself with what God wants to do in this world. It's not just singing cool praise songs every week and feeling connected emotionally. It is yielding that inner self, my own will to do whatever the heck I want, which oftentimes may or may not, be aligned with what God wants.

And instead, worship becomes then, yes, being in awe of the eternal, the divine, the mystery beyond all speaking, but at the same time being able to yield that part of myself over and surrender to the will of God. And so what Jesus would have taught in Aramaic and that would have most likely been the sense in which he would have conveyed the idea of worship. And so I think he taught a way of life and we are invited to yield ourselves over to the divine presence within so that we might follow and hold in awe but not so high of a pedestal that we don't realize we're supposed to do the same things Jesus did. We are meant to do the same things Jesus did. So I could see there is a tension there.

And in a black and white either or society, it's

Okay. And my question to follow-up with that is with Bridget. And so we we have this issue where I think particularly in in today's, I don't know, western culture style of of faith. And that is we would rather you kind of come in, make a decision about this guy, be saved, and then just kind of go through our emotions. And and I'm not really sure that that's very helpful or was intended for us.

And and Bridget, I kinda wanna get back to the the little bit of the crux of this, following this guy, but then also figuring out how to worship him. Now for you, Bridget, like what it seems like it's a little more easier to kinda follow the teachings of Christ, but, like, not really sure how to worship that him. You've got a really unique position too in the fact that you were you've got a Catholic background, but you're also someone who's a young adult who's pushing in and you're exploring right now. And so, like, can you kinda walk us through what's going on in your heart when you step into either a Catholic mass or one of these other churches that you're trying to look at? What's going on in your heart with wanting to, attempting to, trying to figure out wrestling with how to how to do the worship piece of of what you're talking about?

Dang. That's a really good question. I think I really look up to people with strong faith, and I've, you know, like this whole conversation is saying, like, it I do the the teachings of Christ and the teachings of God, like, I really resonate with, and I try to live my life in those ways. And I think even as a young person, as a kid, that was always something that was really emphasized to me from my parents. It was kind of like living these teachings, and but I do don't think kind of that, like and and, you know, not in a in a bad way, but I, you know, I don't think kind of where I have a lot of friends who their parents, instead of those times of emphasizing teachings, it was more emphasizing prayer and how to worship and all those types of things, which I don't think was necessarily fully modeled to me.

Again, not in a bad way, just kind of a different way of of learning and and living in religion. And so I think nowadays, I when I go into a mass or when I go into a church service, I think at this point, I feel like I'm more of an observer than someone that's practicing or or worshiping, and I think that's because I'm I'm kind of looking around and and trying to see what other people are doing and how they're practicing their faith. Because I think one thing that I've seen in from my my dad, especially, he's, you know, has always had a really strong faith is just, like, that core belief in worship was there for him really early on. As a kid, he he was back like, born into a baptist family, and I think kind of that type of, you know, like, do you accept Jesus? He was like, yeah.

And, you know, and then, you know, so on and so on. I think kind of my my faith journey has has had a little bit more questioning, and so I think when I enter into a church, sometimes, you know, I'm I I feel kind of like this podcast says, fear trippable, not religious. Like, I feel the power of that around me, but I think I'm trying to figure out how to, like, tap into it, if that makes sense.

Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And this is that classic case of where you you were formed, you grew up in a in a faith that your parents kind of led you through. And now you're kind of in this position of now you gotta figure it out, right?

It's got you've got to own it.

Is that Mhmm.

Yes. Sound about right?

Say so. Yeah,

yeah. No, that's great. Yeah, Molly, you know, with all of the young adults that you're working with, and kind of listening in on all these things that Bridget is saying, are you encountering a lot of college age students that you're working with? Are these kinds of same issues that you might be hearing from them or just similar kinds of topics of them trying to figure out? Okay.

I think Jesus is great, but I'm not sure how to kinda crossover and like find my my way through the worship.

Yeah. I definitely have students who will say, you know, I I understand these teachings. I see it, but then I see the those of the church and I don't don't see them living that out.

Mhmm.

And I think that that's where it gets really hard for young people of I'm seeing these teachings. I understand what they should be like and how we should be treating one another. And then we're not doing that, but we're saying that we're modeling who Christ is.

Mhmm.

So I definitely understand Mhmm. Where that kinda takes its kinda takes a hard place, and my students will take a pause of, like, what how do I then do that? Because they don't wanna model what what is what they're seeing because it's individuals who aren't truly living into their faith in the way that was intended to. So I think, Bridget, know that you're not alone in that. As a campus minister, I see a lot of students who are in that age bracket who just are trying to do their best in understanding who Jesus is and also implementing that into their life, but not seeing an example of that in a strong way.

So with that being said, we can be examples of that in a strong way that teaches other people how to live that out better.

Yeah. I think that's a lot of a lot of people that I have talked about this with even in the past couple weeks or before then. I think that it was kind of a main theme of frustration of, well, I don't understand why, you know, I don't I don't wanna go to church and sit next to Judy who doesn't live the beliefs out, and I I feel like doesn't want justice and doesn't, you know, see me as an equal because of x y z, and and there was a lot of, like, frustration and hurt there for people. So that that's definitely a lot of what I've heard too.

Exactly. And and James, we're gonna wheel you back in here, because I feel like this brings up the there's so many things that are running through my mind right now as far as like I feel like Molly, you just kinda turned the the conversation around a little bit, where it's like, well, I love to worship Jesus, I mean as far as living out day to day this stuff, nah. Just wait till Sunday rolls around again and then I can get on my worship kick and then but actually forgive people and to love those who I I don't like. Nah, it's not for me, but I'll worship this guy. And I don't know if that's what you were saying, but it to me, sounded like that.

You kind of turn around a little bit. Yeah. And then, yeah, what what Bridget was saying about being able to come in and feel comfortable sitting next to someone who you're like, uh-uh. I don't know if I can do that because of who they are and what they've said. And and so that kind of like brings in a little bit of hypocrisy.

And so James as a minister, I know that this is something you probably deal with And all the so like what advice do you can you give us here? What would you say about? And just kind of Bridget's, you know, what she just brought up the struggle there. And then what would your advice be to for us here on this podcast?

Well, do think it's a big challenge when you want to be spiritual yourself and you think spirituality is a practice. And it seems like the only practice you see is people show up, sing some songs and you hear some teaching and you don't see, you know, it seems to stop at the front.

It's not affecting. Yeah. It's not affecting their life. It's not changing.

Changing anything. So it would be very easy to choose the side and say but I think discipleship's really important. I think that the side of imitating me because actually, you know, the interesting thing is the idea of worshiping Jesus developed in the post resurrection world. During his actual life, he never said worship me. He said follow me.

And he meant imitate me in the way that I'm living. Do this, you know, when people left their way of life, they were meant to not just observe him and accompany him on the road but learn from him how they were meant to live also. We are all meant to live what Jesus taught. When I Interestingly enough, I've been having some conversations since I'm brand new in my new setting, the new church that I'm in about what discipleship and faith looks like. And some people ask, I have a very busy life.

How do I fit spirituality into it? And rather than trying to fit it in, I try to help people recognize spirituality is the way you are. It's not something always that you do. It becomes the way that you do things, if you will. So one of the examples I gave to one of the conversations.

In the United Methodist Church, our very first rule, we have three rules. Do no harm, do all the good you can. And I would translate it as practice, find the practices that work for you and then practice them is the third rule. The first rule, do no harm. If you become intentional about that in your everyday life, you know, you're walking down the sidewalk, you see an anthill, you avoid the anthill.

It seems very tiny but it becomes an attitude about the way you are. And eventually it's no longer a matter of those practices become a part of who you are. And sometimes there really is a disconnect in church. There's no challenge. It's like we're learning something.

It's really cool to learn. James throws in that Aramaic stuff and do his sermon on Sunday. Yeah, I can, you know. And then I just go out and keep doing what I've been doing. We compartmentalize our lives.

And what I think Jesus wanted us to do was to align our lives with God, which is another word for worship in Aramaic. The word that's used means to align your life to surrender. So if you're going to align, the discipleship becomes a part of the way that you do ASP every day. That you supervise people who are building house. That you encourage other people.

It's the way you talk to your friends. Intriguingly enough, the words for good and evil in Aramaic are really about ripeness and unripeness. Evil is unripe and good comes from the root that means to be ripe. And so if you think about how ripe you might be in the things that you do, or am I being right? Is this the best thing I can do in this moment?

Is this a right thing or an unright thing? And you recognize that while you see a lot of unrightness amongst hypocrisy, if you will, in congregations that doesn't have to impact the way you engage. And it sounds like to me, Bridget, from listening to you, that you're engaging faith in the conversations you're having with your peers, with people who are also saying, I don't see it. And if you don't see it in a church, it becomes hard for you to believe that they really are the church because the church is about practice and worship, not practice or worship. So the best you can do is keep practicing.

Keep being ripe every time you gather with somebody else, even if ultimately you have to decide that gathering is just close friends who will at least be honest with you about this journey you're on. Maybe you find a few of them and you decide to study scripture together or hold each other accountable for practices. And then maybe you descend on the church, all of you, and you convert them. You know, okay. Maybe that's a little a I'm not sure every church would receive that with positivity.

No. You can do is show your

own right.

So keep doing it.

Yeah.

Yeah. And we're gonna take a pause here because I want to jump into the practice of worship because I think that it can take on a lot of different meanings and contexts. And so let's get into that a little bit when we come back. Don't go away. We'll be right back with more spiritual, not religious with Bridget Williams.

And welcome back to the second half of spiritual not religious as we have welcomed our first guest speaker, Bridget Williams. And we are talking about how to both follow the teachings of this man, Jesus Christ, as well as worship him. And so far we've been having some really great conversation and we wanted to kind of dive a little deeper into this topic of what it means to worship Jesus. What does that look like and how do we kind of move from both or from following those teachings solely to also learning how to worship this man who and I want to read a section from a book that we've been working on with our fellows program at Appalachia Service Project. This is called The Stories We Live, and this is by Kathleen Cahalan.

And she writes in the beginning of the book, she says, some who hear and accept the message of Jesus do follow. They recognize who Jesus is and address him as, quote, Lord, a term related to homage and to worship. In Matthew's gospel, the leader of the synagogue seeks Jesus' help in restoring the life of his daughter. And when he addresses Jesus, he falls on his knees, and this is Matthew nine eighteen, a gesture reminiscent of the Magi, who, quote, knelt down and paid him homage, end quote. And to be a follower then is to be a worshiper, one whose heart is filled with adoration and love for the source of life, the one on whom we depend.

And so as we kind of get into the subject of what it what does it mean to worship Jesus? We talked a little bit about maybe worshiping is following Jesus and living into those teachings as disciple of Jesus. Some see it as well, no, worship is where, you know, we crank up the music and we are intentional about lifting up this one. It's our declaration, our acknowledgement of who this person is. And so we sing forth praises to this to this being.

And of course, there's probably a few other things that are coming right to my mind as far as what we would declare as worship. And so let's go to our experts here, Molly and James. So as you think of worship, what comes to your mind? I can only imagine that some people are like, well, no, worship is this and it's always this and this is how you do it. And is that kind of what we need to do?

Do we need to figure out the right formula? Or how do you see worship? Molly, start with you, because you are leading young adults into what this means to worship Jesus. So like, what would you tell your young adults that come to you? Like, hey, when we think of worship, here's kind of how we're looking at it.

I think that there's this idea that worship happens on a Sunday or Wednesday night and this is what it looks like and we follow this specific procedure. We sing some songs and then the pastor or an individual will give a sermon where they talk about a certain scripture, and then they relate it to our lives. And then we sing more songs, and then we pray, and then it's over. And what I would offer to you in that is that is a form of worship that we have seen, but that is not all that worship is. And worship can be connecting through music on a regular day driving in the car.

It can be connecting to God through scripture on another regular day. It doesn't have to be this set time. I think we've put ourselves in this box of it has to be at this certain time, and it has to be this certain way, or it's not gonna be, you know, viewed as worship in the eyes of who God is. But I think that once we think that we have it right is when we have it automatically incorrect. If we think that we know exactly the way it should be is when it's the way it shouldn't be.

And so that is who God has continuously showed us over and over again that we think that we're right and we are just not. So I think worship can look like that, but it also can look fully different. And worship can also be sitting with a grieving friend, sitting with someone who's hurting, being just in fellowship with one another, talking about who God is on a podcast. Like, there are different ways to worship. And I think we've just put ourselves in this box of, no.

It has to look like this. And I try to teach my students that we can really expand that idea of what worship is. And if you're not there on a Sunday or on a Wednesday or whatever day that your community worships, that's okay. It doesn't have to look conformed to the ways that the world has made it.

I feel like that's really interesting just because I think about a lot of the way the church does prescribe worship in being there on Sunday and kind of even in the way of the way that, you know, our leaders in the church will say, like, oh, like, I didn't see you last week kinda thing. Like and so I I do feel like that's really an important point of how do we allow people to how do we recognize someone's, like, move towards this spirituality, this, like, loving of god without being so prescriptive and judgmental because I think that's something that a lot of people feel is well, you know, I wanna I wanna figure this out, but I just feel, like, too judged to to figure it out because, you know, if I go one time and I don't come back again, I just feel so guilty. Absolutely. Mhmm. Mhmm.

Yeah. And and I think that's a huge issue too. Right? There the the feelings of judgment that so many people carry with them. And and I liked how Molly you were you you brought up the fact that worship doesn't just have to be relegated to a certain time and or place.

It continues outside of your place of worship throughout the week and then maybe that's what it was intended. James, what do you got?

I you know, if you had gone to various worship experiences, whatever they looked like in the first century, they would have looked completely different in different places wherever you were. They weren't uniform. There was no sense of homogeneity other than the earliest, what we believe is the earliest confession of faith is three words, at least in English. Jesus is Lord. And that sounds like And Lord is actually the our Hebrew sisters and brothers, Jewish sisters and brothers do not speak God's name.

So every time that God's name appears in Hebrew, they say Adonai, which means Lord. Or Hashem, which means the name. So the truth is when they said Jesus is Lord, they're equating or connecting the I am of God to the person of Jesus. They did it in different kinds of ways. Intriguing enough for the first two or three centuries, one of the primary ways they worship was in homes over a meal.

They would gather, they would eat together. And then the Eucharist communion happened at the tail end of that. It wasn't the formalized worship and a formalized structure to worship in did not happen until the dance of the Roman Empire and Christianity becoming the religion of Rome. And when that happened, the shape of our worship buildings and all the names are the same names as Roman administrative buildings, government buildings. We designed them exactly the same and we kind of set an order based on So that kind of So to say there's only one way to worship is to ignore you know, the first four or five centuries of Christianity.

There's not just one way to worship. And Jesus would be horrified if he thought, okay, I'm putting words in his mouth. I think he would be horrified to think that we thought that showing up once a week for an hour, constituted, our life of faith. That that's it. And then we got one hundred and sixty seven hours to do whatever the heck we want.

I think we've got to see it as more. And that's why I love this conversation, Bridget. Thank you for bringing it to us because the connection between imitating Jesus and the way we live and then finding a way to align our lives, which includes awe, worship, perhaps it includes singing, perhaps it includes silence. I have a very good friend who gave up on worshiping in traditional Protestants and became a Quaker. And they sit in silence for an hour, and if nobody feels the movement of the spirit, nobody says anything.

They just sit together. Which, you know, for most of us fidgety people, that would become challenging. But they do it. So I don't know that that answers any particular questions. But to think there's only one way is I think missing the point.

One thing that I think about sometimes is just I think kind of that, and especially in, you know, in college, I was in some different bible studies kind of with one in like a broader Christian group and then one within the Catholic church. And sometimes, one thing that we discussed and sometimes things I think about are just, well, like, that idea of, like, know, worship can be anything. I think some people would say, well, you know, that's not you're not really living into the word. And so, I guess my question for you all is, what what is that, like, cutoff between, like, worship can be anything, but then are you actually living into the word and and, you know, actually worshiping? I don't know.

I'm not really asking this in a specific way, but it's like, you know, can I just say, you know, I'm I'm sitting outside, but if I'm not being present, is that worship or, you know, what are what are we kind of what's what's our cutoff, I guess? This is something that I've thought about, and I feel like different people have really different answers for.

Mhmm. It seems just to get the conversation flowing and Molly and James jump in. It seems that in all of these different ways and forms to worship God, it always to me as I look at everything put together, the one crucial ingredient seems to be that we acknowledge that this person is indeed God. That is they are Thor. And then that gets expressed in a lot of different ways.

And then there's also a little more to, I think your question of can I worship kind of on my own and away from community? Or do I need to be a part of community in order for it to be considered worship? And I don't know. Think that's that's also a yes. That's both and to be by yourself and also to be called in formation of communal worship.

But I'm gonna let Molly and James jump in here on and tell us what they think about that.

I think community is important. I do think it's very interesting to have conversations about what does it mean to say that Jesus and God are in some ways the same. I'm not actually sure that theologically they're not equivalent. Jesus is the full embodiment of the logos or the full embodiment of the Christ. And yet if Christ is what holds the whole universe together, could Jesus have the entire infinite Christ in him?

Or is his embodiment of Christ centricity, the actual Christ, Did he have the most intense piece of it while the rest of it was holding everything together? And the problem is we can say it in lots of different ways. Recognizing that Jesus and God are in some way together, which is where we came up with. We constructed a reality about who God is, the Trinity, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. That's a construction.

It's not we can find a Father, a Son and a Holy Spirit in the Scripture, but that might not be the limit. Or, you know, our limits in understanding who God is, God is spirit. God is physically embodied in all things but is not the embodiment of all things. That is to say we're not pantheists. We don't worship the desk I'm sitting at right now because it's a part of God.

God is in the desk but God is not the desk. God is in you, Bridget, and you, Molly, and you, Sean, but God is not you, but you're not other than God because God's a part of you. But don't claim to be God because they'll put you in a little room with special you know, special, jacket. So the hard part of of worship is when we when we let it slip over and think that Jesus is just God, is just divine. He's the embodiment of the divine, but you can't limit divinity to one place.

In fact, I think part of his revelation was that divinity, the spark of divinity is in us all. And while he fully embodied it, each of us partially embodies it in some way in the way we live and breathe and have our being. That may not have been helpful. Molly, straighten me out.

No. James, I love listening to you speak because I feel like every time you speak, I learn something. Mhmm. And I'm just, like, in awe of your understanding of who God is and the way that you express that. I think that's amazing.

And I can even say, like, in this moment, I feel like there is a moment of worship for each of us in this space together. And so kind of going back to what Bridget said of, if I'm not being present, does it count as worship? And I think we can make anything count as worship if to us that is where our feeling and where our heart is moving in a sacred way. So I think whether it be in worship with other people and we're actually in a room on a Sunday morning or Wednesday night or we are with ourselves or we are in a podcast with friends talking about who god is. I feel like there's an element of worship in each of those places.

And I I ask that we lean into those ordinary moments as worship as well.

Okay.

And I still kinda come back to it seems like it's really the word the kernel, the beginning of worship is just acknowledging who God is. And it's got to start there, I think. And we see it happen time and time again in scriptures where people have an experience with God, whether that be Old Testament scriptures or New Testament scriptures. And then there's this acknowledgement of, Oh, you are this person. You are this being this this deity, which I think is really interesting.

But I think that's where personally, it probably has to begin. And that's whether you are by yourself or you are in community. I think it's probably a lot more fun to worship in community because then, you know, potential of that. But I mean, Handel's Messiah. I mean, can't sing that one by yourself.

Right, James?

Well, you'd be in a lot of trouble if you try to sing it by yourself, Sean. Right? Right?

Oh my god.

Yeah. Go

ahead. Was could tell. Was like I I just really liked, James, what you said about god being within all of us. I think that is something that also helps facilitate this both, like, into the teachings of Jesus,

but

also worshiping God in the way that if we recognize that there's holiness in all of us, it's it's easier to to recognize the like, you know what? That person, like, they might be having a hard time. That's why they're mean, but I do really love them because god is all around us and they're part of god and I think that's something too that I feel like in this understanding of what does it mean to to both follow the teachings and worship Jesus, like, especially from, you know, what we were talking about earlier with, you know, what and what we're talking about now with this what, you know, what does worship look like? And if it looks like all these things, then, you know, you can still without, you know, always you know, what I'm hearing from you all is adoration is important, but that's not what worship always is. And so, when when worship in this case can be that, you know what?

Like, this person was really mean, but I still do really love them because I wanna worship God and Jesus in the way of of of loving them right now. And so I I like the way that you guys have kind of painted that picture of of there's a really open understanding, but basing it in the I recognize who god is and that that God is all around me and all around us.

I would stop even a little tiny bit short of, you know, I don't know that I know who God is. I would so I I recognize God. I am in there there's no place I can go that is not in the presence of God. And I can't possibly as a finite being know the infinite in its infinitude. But in my in my limitedness, I can look around me and all the aspects of divinity, the ones that are available to me, which again, my eyesight limited.

My access to divinity includes this conversation. I see in you Bridget the beauty of what God is doing in our world, in the questions you're asking, in the work you're doing. When I listen to Molly, she always brings out that kind of sense that isn't it beautiful how many different ways God chooses? Because if God is infinite and God is revealing God's self infinitely in infinite ways, mystery doesn't mean unknowable. It means infinitely knowable, Which means, Bridget, in some ways, the way you will worship and acknowledge God.

Even if you're in the same room with Molly, Sean, and I, and we're right now, we're in an imaginary room that exists on the Internet. But if we were all in the same room worshiping God, the way you would experience it would be particular to you and the way that Sean would experience it would be particular to him. We are shaped by experience and connected to God in ways that I get to see in you and I get to see in Sean and I get to see in Molly the glory of God in ways that will help me know more about who God is. And I'll see it in the person that irritates the living bejeebers out of me. Somehow God is present in that person too.

And if I can get to a place where they stop irritating the bejeebers out of me because often irritation is not about them, it's about me. And it's then maybe I will see God more

fully. Wow.

Guys, that was great. I love that. And I love I love how you, Bridget, have pulled forth the seeing God in everyone, which in some respects might be one of the most profound ways we can worship God. Especially when we're looking at someone, we disagree with so much of who they are, they say, and how they're affecting us. To be able to still love them and hold them in esteem because they're one of God's kids.

They there is God in them. That's that's power.

They're just maybe a little unright right now.

As

each one of us get right and God still finds ways to love us. Mercy is new every morning, I believe is what the psalmist says. And just to find that kind of recognition in each of us. I think that's a powerful version. I wanted to say thanks for bringing that forward.

I've got just one little closing thought, friends, from one of our dear friends who is an active theologian, probably doesn't even know that she is, but man, I think she's on her way. We all know, at least on this podcast, Svea Erickson. And if you're listening, Svea, this is a shout out to you. I was having a little conversation with her and we were having I was like, what do you think about this topic that Bridget's bringing up? And she's like, you know, I I think that if we just read the works of of God, that just that doesn't really require any action.

It's it's only us receiving. But worshiping requires active participation and more work out of the people who are faithful. And so I think we can definitely be passive on the one hand with leaning into Jesus, but then there's also an act of peace. And maybe that's what worship is, is that act of peace. I don't know.

Closing thoughts from Molly and James, and then Bridgette, we're gonna give you the last word.

I'm just so grateful that we got to have this conversation together, and I feel lucky to be a part of it. So thank you guys so much for everything. And Bridgette for being our awesome new addition. You have been wonderful and I've loved all your insights.

Yeah. Piggyback right there on my good friend, Molly June. Bridget has been a real gift to have you in this conversation with us today. I hope you remember that you're infinitely precious and unconditionally loved for the gift you already are. And that bringing that giftedness to us today was a gift in itself.

You know, being willing to open yourself up and be a part of a conversation. As frightening it is to talk about faith and then to know that lots of people were going to be hearing this, I commend you on that. And asking the hard questions, I think that's what faith invites us to do. So thanks, Bridget. Thank you for being with us today and bringing that question to us.

And your insights as well.

Yeah. Well, not to just echo, but thank you guys. Seriously, I think that I feel going back to something that Molly said, like, even talking about faith is a form of worship. And so I I don't really think I've realized even in this conversation, I think it's just been so nice to hear your insights because I think oftentimes, I'm in faith conversations with people that are, like, really struggling with their faith or felt really cynical, which is really important to be in those conversations. But I think sometimes, you know, like hearing insights of of folks who, like, spend time in the word daily and are trying to learn these things, And then people who are, like, really struggling in their faith journey, like, it's all really great to hear, and it's all part of, you know, worshiping.

And I think I didn't have that perspective before that these are these are important conversations because they really facilitate our own love of God and our own faith in some ways. So, anyhoo, this has been really great, and I really appreciate you guys. And I everyone everyone listening out there, listen to this podcast. These guys are awesome. Yeah.

Final word.

Thank you for that. We'll make sure that that it gets added into your So was great. A lot of lot of great conversation here. And as always, I feel like there's so much more that was left off the table, but I feel like this is a great conversation starter. If you would like to continue to join in the conversation, we would love to hear from you.

And Molly, in just a second, is going to share that as well as our new line of merchandise that you are able to now jump in on if you'd like to get a hoodie or a t shirt that says spiritual not religious. Molly's gonna tell you how to contact us and also maybe get some merch. Molly?

So if you would like to contact us, that would be at spiritualnotreligiouspodcast@gmail.com. And then if you want to find where our merch is and see our Instagram, that is spiritual.not_religiouspodcast. And that is in our bio on our Instagram. You can go on there and find our merch. We have t shirts and sweatshirts and all new kinds of things that we're excited to share with you.

And do we have a website too?

I don't believe so.

You guys know?

No? We're website less. I'm sad to say.

Maybe that'll be our next Okay. Who knows? Alright.

We vaguely have a website that is our the original site of where our podcast is hosted. And I don't know what the URL is. So by the next time, I will have added another ticker that has the URL for this podcast that gives descriptions. You'd be able to read the transcript of the conversation and all those kinds of things. But I we are hosted by transistor.

Fm. That's our hosting company. And I feel like it's like infinite not it's not infinitely precious. It's spiritualnotreligious.transistor.fm. But I could be wrong, so don't follow that one.

Good. Thank you. Okay.

Alright. Well, we'll get back with you. And hopefully, we'll be coming to you at a YouTube channel near you. And you'll be able to see us live and in Technicolor giving our best shot at talking about all things spiritual, not religious. And until next time, may God bless you, keep you, and make his face shine upon you all.

And thank you again to Bridget Williams for being our very first podcast guest on the show. It was great. We really appreciate her and look forward to seeing you next time. God bless.