Spiritual, Not Religious

Hey, guys. This is Sean, and we wanna welcome you to the next chapter of spiritual not religious. Now it's been a hot second since we aired our last episode. And now because they said it couldn't be done, we are back and perhaps a lot better than ever and ready to take on this next chapter of this supremely unique podcast, spiritual, not religious. Couple new voices that will be joining in and I'm excited for you to meet them in just a second.

They represent some pretty incredible personalities and the wealth of wisdom that they possess is awesome and most especially for the unexpected and beautiful things that they're gonna be sharing with us. So thanks for relistening to us, and we hope that, this time will be of great encouragement to you inspired to share this with others who are wandering in the spiritual deserts of their lives and need a place of rest and healing and just good conversation. And so let's take a moment here right now to welcome in our new, guest host. This is James and Molly June. And I am just so thrilled that these guys have agreed to jump back in in this podcast with me, had some really great conversations around what this was all about.

They both were just super excited about it, very passionate about it. I know James and Molly June through a very special organization called Appalachia Service Project, which hopefully, impacts a lot of you guys out there. But it is a very special organization. Check them out at asphome.org. Very cool.

But, James and I were co chaplains and Molly June was actually one of my, group leaders back in the day when we were taking groups to go serve it, ASP. So very cool. But I'm gonna give them a chance to just to say hey and a little bit about themselves, and we'll start with Molly June first.

Hey, everybody. I am Molly June Miller, and I currently work as the director and campus minister at UT Martin. So that's the University of Tennessee at Martin. So I live in Martin, Tennessee, and I'm originally from New Jersey. So it's been a really cool transition.

It's been fun. And like Sean had mentioned, I had met Sean and James through ASP. Shout out to ASP. They're awesome. And, I still go every summer with my with my sister.

So it's a really special thing, and I'm really excited to be here. And I'm grateful that it brought us all together. What about you, James?

I'm James, and I wear a lot of different hats. I'm a pastor, a father, a husband, a spiritual director, a life coach, a chaplain, a friend, you know, but those are all hats. Today, I know we're gonna be talking about identity and how we identify, and none of those things actually identify who I am. So if I were to tell you who I really am, I'm a person who seeks to be connected with the eternal in lots of different ways. I find myself suddenly surprised by the presence of spirit everywhere I go.

I serve a church. I live in Alexandria, Virginia, and I serve a church and have served the same church for about 33 years now. So, I'm excited that I met both Sean and Molly who are wonderful, exceptional people through, yes, Appalachia Service Project. And, I'm looking forward to these conversations we're gonna have because I I think lots of folks are spiritual and struggling with that religious side because it doesn't, fit who they think they are. And, that's perfectly fine.

So it's great to be with you all, Sean and Molly.

Yeah. I mean, exactly. And and this is exactly what our podcast is meant to be, as a place where young adult voices can be heard regarding their thoughts and feelings about religion, about faith, about belief, about God, about Jesus, about all things spiritual. And, we know that a lot of people have, been hurt by the church or they have disaffiliated from a church community or a faith community for whatever reason. And which is really the reason why a lot of folks claim to be spiritual but not religious.

And so this is a podcast where we kind of want to dive deep into those waters and what does that mean? And we want to answer some of those questions and be a place where you can have your voice heard, about what's going on in your life and on your journey with God. And, and again, belief and faith and all of these things. And we also want to be a place where organization and you're trying to reach young adults, we want this to be a place for you too to come and hear these voices, and to better understand what's going on so you can be able to engage this crowd that claims to be spiritual, not religious. Well, we don't have all the answers, of course.

We just wanna be a place where we talk about things, and just kinda be, a place where your voice is heard more than anything else. And just a community where you can come and fellowship with us and we get to know you a little bit. But we our heart is for that, young adult group that those 18 to 30 year olds plus who are no longer connecting with the divine through a posture of worship. And so you're looking at 3 of those leaders and ministers right here on this podcast. So, and as our good friend, Shane Claiborne says, we're gonna stop complaining about the church we've experienced and try to become the church we dream of.

So we're excited about that. And for this first podcast back, I wanted to get into this idea of identity, and what that looks like. Who am I supposed to be? What am I supposed to do? What does the church or God have to say about that?

And why should it be important? Lots of questions surrounding identity, which is a really important concept for us to kinda get started with because we believe that God has a lot to say about who you are. And yet if we're not plugged into communities of faith that are nurturing us and supporting us, we might be kind of missing some of those those elements that identify who we are. But as young adults, there's a lot of questions going on. There's a lot of wheels spinning.

There's a lot of expectations placed on on you by others potentially. And so we kind of want to talk a little bit about, why this is so important, why community is going to be important in identity formation. And as you kind of like try to figure out some of these bigger life questions, design that God has for all of us, we wanna be a place where we we're tackling those issues and those questions. And so but as far as just for our podcast today, that's kind of our topic, is gonna be this, issue of identity. So I'm a allow James and Molly to jump in on that a little bit.

I was talking a lot. Sorry. But getting us kicked off. What do you what do you think, Marley?

I think I am a young adult who is also experiencing these things while also leading other young adults through the idea of identity. And what I love about identity is that it is something that I think we're always searching for

Mhmm.

And it never stops. There are moments where we find more of who we are and then as we continue to move and learn and grow and create and be, then we find even more of ourselves and what really identifies us. I think what we have to remember is that we are the church, and that's our first identity. And I think I often forget that that the church is my identity. We are the church as the people of the church, not the 4 walls that the church is built to be at this time.

And I think young people know that, and they're embracing that more that we are the church, and we can continue to make that a part of our identity and remember the divinity in us.

That's great.

Wow. You all say all the wise things. I mean, what are you gonna leave for me to say? When I when I think about how important community is, you know, the word that arose in me as I was listening to Molly and, to Sean is, a beautiful African word, Ubuntu, which means I am I because of us or because of we. I can't be me without us because we're all part of one another.

And, you know, we learn more about who we are by being in contact with others. Often times I think we do identity by saying I am I, not you. And we identify through the negative as opposed to the positive of who I really am, not because I'm not Sean, not because I'm not Molly, because in all honesty, there's such a part of my life that I am not me without them. Yeah. And the truth is even people I don't know as a part of humanity, we're connected.

We are connected to the way spirit works. And so the opportunity to be intentional about that is what I think the idea of church, the gatherings that first formed after, after Jesus was built around this idea that we need each other, to sharpen one another, to encourage one another, to to hold each other accountable because lord knows every one of us trips up and need somebody not to make us feel bad or be judgmental about it, but say, hey, didn't you just cross a line we kind of agreed was a line not to cross?

Mhmm.

And, we need somebody who knows our name, knows where we're met we matter because being people of significance, every one of us is. Every one of us matters. Having other people who recognize that significance, appreciate who we are, and help us to discover at deeper levels, what parts of ourselves have been masks we put on for survival because we put on a mask because we needed to be this person so we could make our way through the treacherous pathway through, adolescence, when other adolescents can be exceptionally cruel and so we put on a face that protects us because if they really saw us they would really hurt us. But if they only saw the pretend us they're only hurting the pretend us. You know, we've put on these faces to fit in, sometimes even in our churches pretending to be somebody we're not so that, and

that's why

Yeah. Organized religion. Now the interesting thing is, just a brief aside, spiritual not religious is wonderful. The word religious, if we could only reclaim, it's original root, it's original root as in Latin means to reconnect.

Mhmm.

To re, like the word for ligament, ligio, religio or religio means to reconnect. And that's what we're trying to do is reconnect. But we've become come to think of the institution as religious, and each individual as spirit based, and maybe there's a bridge we can build somewhere along the way. I'm not telling you, you all have to go to church, or even my church, because it's not mine anyway. And it's a building as Molly it's not a building as Molly reminded

us. So

now I did too much talking, but that's the way that, I guess it's round robin.

No. It's great. Go ahead, Molly.

As James was speaking, I don't know if y'all are familiar with Inside Out, if you've seen that movie before.

Just watched Inside Out 2.

Okay. So it makes me think of Inside Out 2 of our identity and how we kinda pretend to be different in different moments or we put on these masks because in the movie, Riley wants to be cool for these hockey players that she wants to play with. And so she pretends to be someone else as she's moving through adolescence and not knowing who she is. And by the end of it sorry. Spoiler alert here, people.

She figures out more of who she is and is reminded that she is a daughter, that she's a friend, that she is a good person, and that her she needs to reconnect with her friends again even though she's gonna go to a different school and things are gonna be different. That she's going to be okay being who she is. And that really made me think of what James had said about putting on different masks and also moving through adolescence in a way where it's hard and there's moments that are really full of grief. But once we get there and we know who we are, sometimes we have to do it all over again too. So I really appreciated that, James.

Mhmm. Yeah. And it goes back to the point of why community is so important. And for, our sakes, and the point of our conversation, the church has been a a huge piece of that identity formation for a lot of folks, who, were either drugged to the church doors with from their parents, every Sunday morning. Or maybe they were invited by some friends they started going to church, and they fell in love with their Sunday school class, or their youth group.

Maybe your church has a really great young adult program. I don't know. Church for a lot of folks, was very foundational to who we were and kind of was that first connection to God for us. And then somewhere along the way, that kind of got misplaced or, forgotten or, maybe it was just turned off altogether because of a negative experience. But community is such an empowering thing for all young adults.

And, one of the one of the books that I teach from, it's called Reclaimed, and it's by a professor, Doctor. Denise Jansen, and and she writes that any identity bearing community, religious or otherwise, improves young people's likeliness to thrive. And so, I've been to plenty of places where, like a brewery, and there's some really good ones in Asheville, by the way. And there's one in particular, and they've got like these, just rows or a huge row of volleyball courts, we were out there one night just hanging out with some young adults, and just watching all of these, adult groups and young adult groups come in and and, you know, have this form of community. And, I I wonder how how many of our young adults kind of start to lean more into those kind of communities Yeah.

And away from a faith based community because there's maybe too much harm or there's, you know, it just I'm I'm tired of the hypocrisy or I'm tired of fill in the blank. And so their identity starts to get formed more in these groups where there's maybe it's more fun related, or maybe it's more, specific to a kind of hobby or thing that they're into. But, I think that that's something that, I I want us to talk about as far as, you know, what's happening with with how the church is missing an opportunity, to encourage young adults to wanna come be a part of growing their faith in a community of people that wanna surround them with love. And maybe they're just not seeing that, finding that. What do you guys think?

Well, I would jump in and say that I do think that community is formed in places where we feel accepted and loved. And, for some people who are, you know, maybe dragged to church, and, don't find that level of acceptance that they were hoping for, that when you're accepted and received for who you are, you get to explore who you really who you really, really are. Not just, you know, you're taking it face value, but as you explore and try to find out who you are, no one is telling you, no, you can't be that person. That's not a you know, and I think that the the reason why so many people have been pushed away by church is because some churches try to tell you who you're not. Even if that is who you are.

If you're discovering your deepest identity is is something that that particular church doesn't think is okay, they tell you that that's not okay and that there's no place for you. And they even tell your parents that you shouldn't be allowed to come home, that you need to be disowned because you that will teach you to become who you're really supposed to be. And that's why people leave the church. They see that, happen to their friends or they see that, they receive that experience themselves. And instead of feeling accepted and loved, which is, hey that's the model Jesus gave.

The only person he ever had challenging words for, for the most part were religious people who were busy keeping everybody out with their rules. So Jesus accepted and loved you right where you were, went and hung out at your house, had a party with you all because he was celebrating you as you. And just by hanging out, that presence allowed you to discover more about who you were, to be freer to be who you are and to express the divine that is expressed in a way through you, that is expressed in no other person ever in history or in the future, that uniqueness that you bring to being the spiritual being you are, is something worthy of celebrating and encouraging, you to bring out. I think the church has a place in that, can have a place in that. If acceptance and encouragement are a part of it, there can be teaching as a part of it and you can talk about some of the biblical texts that may or may not, say what some people think it says, and how that fits into who you are meant to be.

But the bottom line for me is everyone starts out as loved. Long before you even know who God is. God already loves you. You are already, unconditionally loved and infinitely precious for the gift you are.

So you don't have to, like, figure it all out before you come into a church, James? I mean, I thought that was the point for a lot of churches. It was like, no, you need to act like us. You need to talk like us first. And then we'll love you, then we'll accept you.

But you can't come in here with all your issues and all your beliefs and and think that, we're gonna, you know, think that that's okay.

Well, I think there are churches like that, but I don't think God is like

that. Really?

I don't think we're modeling God very well, but

that's the church

we are. But, again, this is my take on it. I what what do I

know? Okay. What do you know, Molly June?

I I you know, I can't claim to know that many things either, but what I do know from what I've seen of who Jesus was is that Jesus was someone who was with the people that no one else wanted to be with.

Mhmm.

And like James had mentioned, to me a little while ago, Jesus was always traveling. Jesus was always walking from place to place and never really had a home.

Mhmm.

Because Jesus was meeting people where they were. Jesus wasn't expecting them to come to him.

Yes. Yes. Exactly. And just saying, no. I I don't need to walk into another church and they, cast a judgmental eye on me or tell me that, you know, how I'm thinking about things is completely wrong.

And, I I think it's time for for us to have, doors that say, you know what? We're gonna open. We don't care where you're coming from. We don't care who you are. We don't care what you believe.

Absolutely. We want you to know, first things first, you are loved, and we want you to be here part of this family. What a message. What a compelling message, and one that Jesus also

preached.

And listen, we're gonna take a break right now, and we're gonna come right back, for our second half. We got a lot more to talk about, so don't go away. Be right back. Okay. Welcome back to spiritual not religious.

I am Sean, and I'm joined with my co host Molly June and James Henry, doctor James Henry. So and today, we've been kind of going in, to this topic of identity, and why that is important. And, the second half of the show, we kinda wanna move more towards what we believe as, faithful folks, what God is saying about who we are. And we realize that, we may have heard from churches that people who are dreadfully sinful and horrible and wicked and are deserving of wrath. We are this spider being held over the flames of God, right?

And, maybe we've had some pretty harsh depictions of what God thinks of us. And some of us have heard that we are loved and that we are children of God and that God is well pleased with us. And so whatever you have heard, we kinda wanna get into this conversation where we're trying to discern what God is saying to us and, and how does that affect who we believe we are. And I wanna start, with a passage out of scripture. And it's it comes from the book of Ephesians.

It's chapter 2 verse 10. And it says, for we are God's handiwork created in Christ, to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. And there's something about that verse that I really love and that's God prepared something in advance for us. I think there's a message that we've got to remember is that when God made creation, God said it was good. Somehow that has gotten diluted and, we hear a real negative message in church, about who we are and what's going on in the world.

And it's all bad, it's all going to hell. And yet, you know what, God still made this place. This is still God's, it made it good. There's a lot of good in it. And so, I think we want to reclaim that, potentially.

And where God says, you know, in advance for us, so he he may, he prepared these things for you to do in advance. And I and I just, I love the intentionality there. And, what do you guys think about how that could affect, who we think about ourselves if we know that, wait a minute, there is a God that actually had a plan for me. Maybe there's more going on than I'm giving God credit for. What do you guys think about that?

I think what we forget is that we were made in the divine image of who God is and because of that, there is a plan or there is a path set for us that is going to help us reach our fullest potential.

But which god? The wrathful, vengeful, are you people messing up?

No. The god of love and the god of kindness and the god who, you know, created Jesus to sit with individuals who were sick and to help people walk and to, you know, redeem them of their sin because he knew that they deserved love and joy to be filled within them and help them find peace within that. And I also think that when we remember who we were divinely created to be, we can move closer to our fullest potential. And we find that fullest potential in the identity that Christ has put upon us.

Okay. You

know, thinking along those same lines with Molly, I I really appreciate you drawing attention to the first creation story. There are really 2 creation stories in Genesis, chapter 1 and then, you know, 2 and 3. Chapter 2 and 3 is a separate one. But in the first one, God creates everything bit by bit, And then at the very end makes humanity in God's image, Genesis 126. And, says let us make humankind in our image, in our likeness And after that 6th day of creating humankind, God didn't just say, hey, that's good.

That's he's God said, that's very good. And that original blessing, that sense of original blessing is is something that we lost. Original sin didn't exist until the church through St. Augustine and later theologians. So we're talking like the 5th or 6th century after Jesus.

We invented this idea of original sin. Some people might question whether we didn't invent original sin so that we kept the church in business doling out forgiveness so people could slide into heaven afterwards. I'm not saying that. Don't get me wrong. But the the original sense of who we are is good.

Not just good, very good.

Yeah.

And if we draw in, something that the original biblical writers couldn't fully envision, if we draw in what we're learning now that the universe is 22,000,000,000 years old, and that this eternal divine intention, the mystery behind it all, God, as we choose, that's not like a name. God just points to a reality beyond us. You know, began this, you know, with this intention and looked and waited for us. What kind of patience exists? I can't wait to, you know, 5 seconds at a traffic light and the eternal is waiting for 22,000,000,000 years for us to pop into being.

Began the process of creation. In the beginning, God began creating. That's really the sense of it. It wasn't a, hey, created and it was done. It was began the process of creation in which we're invited.

Part of our identity is to be co creators with God who is making all this stuff happen. We are not God, but we're not other than God. We're a part of God's work in this world. And so identity derived from that which is written on our heart, the uniqueness of who we are, as a reflection of the eternal, of the divine. We reflected into the world in a unique way, in a Molly way, in a Sean way, in a James way, in a however many of you who are listening to us way, and even people who aren't listening to us way, if we could get in tune with that deepest sense of identity, we can reflect that beauty into the world.

And it's a long process of learning to accept and see and peel back layers of, the of the false selves that we've created to get to that deeply true self God made us to be, so that our reflection is really, it's like cleaning a mirror. It, now we see in a mirror dimly, then we will see, you know, face to face. We'll see and that that reflection, I can look as we're talking and recording this podcast at Molly and see the reflection of the image of God, an aspect of it. I can look at Sean and see that very same thing. I'm working on it.

I can see it in me too. You know, but,

It's there. It's there.

So it that that identity is who God is making us to be. And it's a process, an ongoing revelation of who we are. We don't have to be caught up in the person we were as a 10 year old, or a 6 year old, or a 13 year old, because we're here now. And God is continuing to move in us and create in us. We weren't fixed in that moment.

Our identity is evolving as we know God more, as we see God in bigger and different and engaging ways. So I love that image of being made for a purpose that Sean shared, from you know Ephesians. I love the image that Molly shared, and really I'm just piggybacking on them in sharing these thoughts. But, each of us gets to reflect that little that little tiny piece. And, I think it's really kinda cool to get to be a part of that as our identity.

Yeah. I agree with that. And I think it's important, that we we we push into, what we think God thinks of us. Because I think a lot of us probably come to the table with some hurts, negative perceptions about what that image is like. You know, we're bad, we're evil, and not to say that there isn't evil, there definitely is evil.

There are bad things that have happened in the world and people are behind those bad things. But at the core is this God who says, no, my my divinity is in you. My my my handiwork, my craftsmanship is in you, right? It talks about us being the masterpiece. And and so I think, we need to begin to kind of see that in ourselves.

Jesus once asked, who do you say that I am? And that's a great question. And I think we all should be asking that question to determine, okay, well, who is this Jesus? And and what is he really, and how does he influence and impact my life? But I think it's also fair if young adults were to ask Jesus, well, who am I?

Who do you say I am Jesus? Because I've done some pretty bad things or I don't know who I am or, I'm not sure I really believe in you. And I think young adults really wanna And I think young adults really wanna know, like, what does Jesus if Jesus if they could hear Jesus tell them, hey, this is who you are. Man, that would be powerful. And how how can the church answer that question for a lot of young adults?

And I think some are doing a great job pointing a finger, telling a lot of folks are probably not gonna join the the kingdom club. Mhmm. And they're gonna burn in in in in hell. And some are doing a really good job of saying, no. You you're part of our family.

You're remember when she said you're an adopted son and daughter? That's that's who you are. What what do you guys think?

I when you're saying this, Sean, I'm drawing this image that I know y'all will understand from ASP, but we call this place the porch, and it is a place where all of the summer staffers meet to be summer staffers with the Appalachia service project. And I served on staff for 4 summers, and then I did 15 months with them as a gap year in between college and starting, you know, what we call a real job, which I now am in ministry, which is still my real job that I love. But with that being said, I feel like when I am with those people on the porch, that is the closest place that I feel to being the person that I'm supposed to be, that my identity feels really whole in that place. And I think it's because everyone continues to remind me that I'm beloved.

It is

a reminder that even when things are hard or this job gets hard or these moments are hard, you are always beloved by this community of people. And I think Paul put it best when he said, you know, there's no word that we can explain for a godlike community so strong as this. And he was talking about the word, and I use that with my students often of I feel like the porch with ASP is where Koinonia really thrives. And so that is what continues to bring people back every year. I mean, ASP on the porch is a church.

It is a gathering in a body of people who remind each other that they're beloved. And so how can we go out from that place and bring that belovedness and that community and that to the gathering that we are going to then call the church? I wonder how we can do that better.

Yeah. I love the porch. And I think that a lot of people, and if you do identify with Apology Service Project, it is. That that's a lot of people's church, for a number of reasons, but that's they don't go to any other church. This is their church.

Community like that, I think a lot of young adults find church, outside of traditional, institutional kinds of churches, right? They find them in breweries. They find them in mission organizations like Appalachia Service Project or they find them at camps, or they find them in their communities or hiking community or their whatever it is that they're into because there's a fellowship there. There is a bond. There's a welcoming.

There's a come as you are kind of atmosphere, right, that draws that in. What do you think, James?

Well I I think that one of the the full acceptance piece for both of you have made some really good allusions to what church could be. And, I I have more than once referred to I think that a lot of 12 step programs, recovery and addiction programs are a lot more like church. I shared with both of you, in another conversation, altogether, about how I I read, I read somewhere, someone wrote, I think it was a meme, about how they showed up late for church and someone looked at them and there was judgment because they were late to church. And they showed up late for their meeting, and they stopped the meeting, and someone walked right over. Whoever was leading the meeting walked over and hugged them because they realized that that person didn't almost didn't make it to, to the recovery meeting.

Yep. And I that kind of embrace, that kind of encouragement, we are not defined by our worst moment. Nor are we defined by our best moment. Often times, we get that mountaintop experience and we think that defines us for the rest of our lives and we keep looking for that same experience again. And it was a once in a lifetime experience.

Your next mountaintop may look like something else altogether. It might not even look like a mountain. It might look like the beach. It might look like the jungle. I don't know what it's gonna look like.

But, you know, if you keep going back to the high point or the lowest point of your life as what defines you, you miss out the fact that your the definition of you is deeper than your worst or your best moment. And that's the you know we put labels on all kinds of people in our lives. It makes them safer for us to handle and for us to dismiss. Sometimes, if we label people criminals or, you know, whatever it may be that we, place on them because then we can attach all of our, our feelings about that particular thing and dismiss those folks as people. And and by doing so, we're allowing the worst moments of their lives to define who they are, rather than the than than something deeper than that.

There is for each of us, from my perspective, there is nothing that has the right to name us any deeper than love itself. Love Mhmm. Wow. Is our identity. It is the connective tissue of the universe, the foundational piece of it.

If you were to ask me what the original intention was and I had to define it in one word as the universe exploded into the big bang or however it unfolded I wasn't there. Maybe I was. Maybe the most original part of me, intention in God's eyes was there. But it was love that caused that intention to flow out into everything else. And, so I think at the core, we have to learn to accept the love that is already there of who we are, that we are loved.

And that our purpose in life is to love. And it's to love in the unique ways. Molly through her form of ministry. Sean through the kinds of ministry and work that he does. Me through the kinds of things I do.

But you're not defined by what you do either. It's the deepest who you are and that love comes out and is reflected in a variety of ways. Beautiful, beautiful ways. It's like a tapestry god has been weaving since the beginning and god could see where all the threads are going. And we were like, you know, we we just don't know.

So that was a little all over the place, but that was my thoughts.

So I love about this podcast. It's gonna be a little all over the place. Right? Yeah. It's good.

I I love that. Yeah. And and I like how you point to the source of all of this. Right? I mean, even Jesus said, look.

God is love. And I think we need to start there with that that image. And so, if you're someone on here and you're you're kinda, like, wrestling with who God is and and what God has to say about who you are, I think that's where you have to start. And, and and to go from there, but to know that, your identity is shaped and it's formed out of love, into love so that it could go and produce love. And so you recall we believe that we're we're called into this, co laborer kind of kingdom building that God is doing not like waiting until we die and go to heaven.

It's like, God's no, no, no. The work's happening now all around and we want you to be part of it. I want you to be a co laborer. I want you to be a co heir. And this is who you are.

You're you're you're part of what we're doing here now and building this up. And there's a lot of work to do, and there's a lot of people who need to realize who they are, and that they are loved. There's a great verse out of a Old Testament book called Micah, which is happens to be the name of my son. But, in Micah chapter 6 verse 8, we we find that, this prophet says, the Lord has shown you what is good. There's that word good again.

He has told you what he requires of you. You must act with justice. To be formed in justice, right? What are some of the justice issues in our world today? And how can we be involved with that?

You must love to show mercy, to be a person of mercy. That's difficult, right? I know it is for me. I'm sure it is for you guys. James, it sounds like you and I are nice guys until we get onto the road and then everyone else is an idiot behind the wheel.

It drives us nuts. But that's when I lose my religion right there is when I'm driving. That's a whole another podcast. Let's continue with this verse. You must love to show mercy, and you must be humble as you live in the sight of your God.

So some humility there, as part of who we are, and how how difficult is it to, have a sense of pride in who we are, but yet remain humble about it. And just for you guys, I mean, I'm probably the best at being humble. Maybe not as good as the apostle Paul, because he was really awesome too apparently is what he said. But I'm sorry, dad. But yeah.

So these these key factors. Right? Another key verse who that that tells us who got let me just try this again. Another verse that tells us how God feels about who we are, alright, and instructing us, this is who you are, someone who acts with justice, someone who loves mercy, someone who walks humbly around others. Kinda reminds me of the way Jesus lived a little bit.

Yeah. Lot of compassion, a lot of justice making, and a lot of humility. What do you guys think? Yeah.

I I think in that, we are called to that work because that is also a way that we are going to find who we most are at our core. So when we act justly, when we love mercy, when we walk humbly, we will then find our identity who in Christ has called us to be. And I know that that's in a mo in different moments, that's what's been helping me move and because remember, I'm still a young adult too, and so I'm trying to figure this all out and moving closer and closer to that place of what my identity is. But it's there's different moments where I identify with different things or feel like, okay. I found the identity.

This is what I'm supposed to do. And then God flips it on its head and says, oh, no. This is what you're supposed to do. Yes. No.

Now this is what you're supposed to do. And so I don't think our identity not think I know our identity cannot be found in a career or in, person. Our identity is found in who Christ has truly called us to be. And we may act that out in our career, like, a part of my identity is being a campus minister. I love my job at the Wesley Foundation,

but

that's not my identity is not being a campus minister. But part of me and who God divinely created me to be is to use my gifts for those good works.

Mhmm. So

I think that that's what we need to lean into of acting justly, love, mercy, and walking humbly to find that identity in Christ.

Right. Identifying those gifts, those talents, those abilities that God has given to each one of us, regardless. And so I think that's another important thing to consider as we're trying to figure out who we are is identifying those traits. Right? What what what has God blessed me with?

What what skills, what trace, you know, gifts and abilities that God has given me with?

Yeah. That's good.

That's okay. It's also okay to get it wrong. And to be Absolutely. I am. I don't know the amount of times I've been, like, this is who I think I am.

This is the identity that I think that God's given me.

And

then I do something and I'm, like, I I really don't like this. So I obviously don't think God gave me this gift that I'm trying to use the most. Like, if I had to be organized all the time at my job and, like, did all the finances, that's not

my gift.

But my assistant director, her gift is organization and being able to do the finances and knowing how to do it well and doing it humbly and loving and kindly. And then for me, I'm better at speaking outwardly to people and meeting people where they are and sitting with them and doing intentional conversation. But if we switch roles, we wouldn't feel divine at all. Right? When you find that thing that makes you feel most alive in the world, lean into that because that's probably where your identity also lives.

Nice. I really, that was that was wicked wise, Molly. Wicked wise. I think, it is. You know, it's a lifetime journey.

I do think that you you arrive at it and you discover the pieces that really are fulfilling to you and that you can live into and that you feel good about living into. It really is a reflection. And the fact that we learn more about ourselves, I'm convinced when we fail, and we learn more about God when we fail than when we succeed, because God loves us when we fail. And those are moments when we learn that love is not conditional based on us always succeeding. Success is not the measure of love.

Love remains as the underpinning for the whole identity, whether you succeed or fail. And you learn more when you fail. That's why also it's important that you have a community. It would be great if it was the church, but you need a community of people who also accept you when you drop the ball. When I was in college, I convinced a group of my friends to go and see this movie that I don't think is even available in syndication anywhere called Your Warrior of the Future.

Because I had seen a preview and I thought it was gonna be great. It was a terrible movie. It was it was the worst movie maybe that I have ever seen in my life. The the mouth movement and the words were not in sync with each other. It was it was and and it wasn't like it was dubbed.

It was like it was not even in sync. It was a terrible movie. And do you know what those friends did? They loved me anyway. They laughed at me and with me afterwards.

I realized I had failed, but I and I remember that. That story just came up for the first time in a long time. It was a failure in which I found that those friends who had been my community, my faith community, as well as my community community, my good friends all accepted me. I never got to pick another movie, but, we were going to see in the theater. However, they love me just the same.

And that's what the church needs to be. People who love each other when we fail, as well as when we succeed, and when we just are in the middle somewhere. And I think we need those communities.

James, I feel like when you said that, I had this visual of when we try to live into the person that we aren't, it's kind of like the voices not matching up with our mouths. Yeah. Right?

I I like that.

It's kinda like I know. Right? I'm feeling this for a minute. I think this is something I'm on to.

Come on.

I think that our when our voices don't match our mouths is when we're not meeting where god has called us to be, and we're not using our gifts in the way that god intended them to be. And so I just sit on that and kind of ponder that and think on that of what does that look like and how will I know when my mouth and what I'm saying actually do line up. And I think it's when you passion of where the world, you know, where the intersection of the world really meets your greatest passion of what the world needs from you that you can only give.

It's your grounding. It's your coming back to that walking humbly with God. Because to walk humbly, humble and humus, dirt, humus, you know, walking in a grounded way with God, being self aware enough to realize, wait, my mouth is moving, but the words I'm saying are not me. Because I do think that you can be the authentic you in this world, and that's what God really wants. Authenticity.

Wants you to be transparent and authentic. Not putting on one face here and another face there, and another face. Although sometimes we do that for self protection and we fall into that pattern, but ultimately for God, God is hoping you're going to show up as you. Because how can you give yourself to God, ultimately giving yourself over to God, if the you you're giving away is some fake thing that you've made up. God doesn't even know that fake.

That's not you. You know, gotta find that authentic self, the deepest self. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think that's one of the reasons, a lot of folks are kind of wandering around in these spiritual deserts because they can't find authenticity, right? They go to a church or a faith organization everyone's wearing these masks that you both have been talking about. And they pick it up pretty quick. The BS meter for young adults is pretty strong.

And you walk into a place and you're just like, no, thanks. I don't need to parade around for a couple hours on a Sunday morning when I could be sleeping in, and being myself instead of going and trying to be someone I'm not. Absolutely. So people will accept me, for the way they want me to be. So I think young adults are kinda just tired of that, and there's a shift away from that.

So no. This has been really great, guys. And, you know, as I kinda move to close this out and be kinda thinking of any other little thoughts you wanna throw in here, but for those of you who are listening, we cannot wait to hear from you. We wanna hear your response to this podcast, your thoughts on identity, and, your experiences with trying to figure out, who you are in in in light of who God says you are and maybe some some voices you've heard, some expectations you've had from, churches or church leaders. We'd love to hear all of that whether positive or negative.

And, we're already hearing from some folks on our Instagram account, Covey Byers and Autumn Hoover, who were really interested in discovering how God meets us just where we are and affects us on our spiritual journey. So if you've got some things you want us to talk about, send that to us, and we will definitely put it in our idea warehouse and get it out onto the podcast. Because we really want to hear from you and know how we can better have conversations around the things that are most important to you. And so, yeah, this has been a lot of fun, guys. Do you guys have some closing comments that you wanna throw out there?

Just remember that you are beloved. And so even if you can't find your identity right now or feel like you never will, know that you absolutely will. It's just gonna take time. Divine understanding the divine takes time and it's a holy mystery because it's a it is a mystery. Right?

If we could figure it all out, then it wouldn't be called a mystery. So we're rooting for you and we know that you can do it.

We're definitely rooting for you and that's why we're taking our time to do this and be a part of this conversation. We want you to feel like you could enter into a conversation with us. We're going to be as real with you as each one of us knows how to be. I want to remind you of one of my favorite phrases, which is, just remember you're infinitely precious and unconditionally loved for the gift you already are. Not who you're going to be down the road, when you finally discovered your identity, but already right as you are right now, you are a gift.

You're already the gift God made you to be. So just let that out. Be the love that, God wants you to be in life. It's risky. Saying anything else would be a lie.

It's risky to you to try to discover who you are, but it's worth the risk because people will fall in love with the real person that you are. God is already head over heels in love with you. And so, hey. Why not try to be you?

Yep. And you've got 3 new friends who are in your corner. We're here for you, and we're looking forward to more podcasts, building relationships with you, online. This is the world we live in now, right? We build relationships, over the interwebs.

And so we're looking forward to more conversations with you for Sean James and Molly June. We're gonna sign off, but, we're looking forward to our next podcast, which will be dropping soon. So Mary oop, nope. Yep. Merry Christmas.

That'll be done already. We're looking for a new year. It's gonna be exciting. It's gonna be good because God is in control. And, looking forward to seeing you guys next time.